Hello boys and girls, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show
where it is my job to attempt to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types from all different disciplines to give you techniques perhaps tactics favorite books
training regimens even
recovery protocols even that you can use and my guests today are the best at what they do Michael Phelps and Grant hack it. They're very close friends. They were able to feed
Off of each other their shared stories are incredible. So the combination of the two on this podcast was really special now, let me read these bios and then we'll jump right in to the conversation Michael Phelps you recognize this name on Twitter at Michael Phelps is widely regarded as one of the greatest athletes of all time. He captured 28 Metals including a record-setting twenty three gold medals and set 39 World Records over the course of his career. Phelps utilized his performance bonus
for
Eight gold medals in 2008 to establish the Michael Phelps Foundation which promotes water safety Healthy Living physical and mental and the pursuit of Dreams the foundation signature program. I am is a learned to swim healthy living and goal-setting curriculum based on the principles and tools Phelps utilized in his swimming career and is available through the Boys and Girls Clubs Of America and Special Olympics International his advocacy for water safety and mental health has earned the recognition of the Boys and Girls Clubs Of America champion abuse American Image Awards.
That's the humanitarian award Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration special recognition award the Ruderman Family Foundation Morton e rudimental Warden inclusion and PR weak Health influencer 50 and 20 20 Communicator of the Year among many others Phelps served as an executive producer and featured talent and the HBO documentary the weight of gold which explores the mental health challenges Olympic athletes often face. Although it really extends to many many more people and types of
Pulled an Olympic athlete in addition. He has published two autobiographies No Limits subtitle the world succeed and beneath the surface that were New York Times and USA Today bestsellers and one children's book how to train with a T-Rex and win a gold medals. You can find him online on Twitter twitter.com forward slash Michael Phelps Facebook facebook.com forward slash Michael Phelps and on Instagram @ m underscore Phelps 0 0 Grant hack it on Instagram at Grant underscore underscore.
Her score Hackett, that's two underscores. So I'll give that to you again at Grant underscore underscore ha cket represented and captained Australian in swimming at the Olympic Games. He collected a total of 58 Metals over the course of his swimming career with 26 gold at Olympic Commonwealth and World Championship levels along with 16 World Records. He remained unbeaten for 11 years in his pet event the 1500 meter freestyle. That's just nuts Grant also received prestigious honors such as the order of Australia.
The Centenary medal and the Australian Sports metal Grant is a member of the sports Australia Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame his qualifications include also an executive Master's of Business Administration with first class honours a diploma of business law and a diploma of financial services Grant is the CEO of generation life and australia-based investment firm managing more than 1.3 billion dollars. So with all that said, please enjoy Michael Phelps.
And Grant hack it.
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Living tissue over metal endoskeleton Michael and Grant welcome to the show.
Thank you Tim. Thanks for having
us thank course. Thank you top grants rolled it thrilled to have us all together. I this was The DaVinci Code of scheduling the Fermat's Last Theorem of coordination because we have people in every possible time zone.
And multiple countries. So I appreciate you guys being flexible with with making it happen. And I thought we would start with difficult or particularly notable races, and I'd love to start with you grant because I was confessing to both of you before we started I enjoy swimming actually they even learn to swim until I was in my 30s, which is a whole separate story, but I really enjoy swimming, but I know very very little about competition and the history
Of competitions and notable raises and so on Grant key, please speak to and describe for people what happened in the 2004 Olympics in the 1500 meter freestyle.
Yeah. That was a particularly tough Olympics form am that year. I actually got pneumonia at the start of the year because I was just over training. I am got a little bit sick and never missed a session and you know, I used to do sort of 8K on average per session and used to flog myself and then I got the ammonia went to hospital that church.
Into a chronic chest infection because I didn't stop training as soon as I came at a hospital because I couldn't because I'd miss the Olympic Games and then when I got to the Olympics in Athens in 2004, I then only one objective was to win three gold medals and I got two gold medals both by point. One of a second two silver medals. So by point one over second and wasn't too happy about that. Then I raise the 1500 meter freestyle and I actually had to deal with a partially collapsed lung on my left side because it was blocked with mucus for so long.
Ang that that race I probably push myself through more pain than I've ever had and one of Michael's teammates last and Jensen was breaking the American record and by about 12 seconds doing a personal best time and so it pushed me to the nth degree and that was brutal I came home. I went under a CAT scan and they said oh there's a massive lump on your lungs we get up to inject you with iodine just to see what's going on. And you know, they said I was a big ball and you know, Jack me with a white eyeliner to look and they said I'd say cats.
Hannah said what do you mean is it? Okay, and they said well you lower left lobe is got no oxygen for so long that it's actually just deflated and it's just sitting up in a big ball and I've got a huge lung capacity of twelve point six liters and apparently that took something like a quarter of it off. So that that race to win that gold medal was was the most painful moment that I've ever had in my career and yeah, but probably the most rewarding at the same time, but certainly after that I promised I would never never race like that again and and Michael knows
How much of a sore spot that for Bo to Freestyle relay was a few days before where we lie point one. So I've to follow
up questions related to this. The first is you mentioned lung capacity twelve point six liters. Do you have any idea just as a point of reference what average muggle heart capacity is like ignore me as one of my Olympic friends put it normies what that is compared to a non-olympic.
Swimming champion lung capacity.
So when that was done because I'm referring to actually the stats in 2004. It's a hundred and sixty percent above what it should be for my heart and my age at the time. So it was twelve point six three liters my total lung capacity. So yeah, one of those genetic things that
helps, you know, it's at that level it's with swimming and a lot of sports like at the junior high level you
See all sorts of different body types. And then as you get a little bit higher, you see still different body types, but they there's a point where they start to converge on very particular sets of physical characteristics on the lung. So partially collapsed lung that to most people listening that just seems completely baffling because so much of swimming would seem dependent on utilizing your full lung capacity. What did it feel like you said painful? What what does it feel like to swim at?
Max Capacity with a partially collapsed lung
it's not good Tim. Let me tell you that is the way I described that rice is like putting handcuffing someone to a treadmill putting on a Max Incline Max Speed and then just going for 15 minutes that that was the intensity of the pain normally where I felt that intense pain at the Thousand meter Mark. I felt at the 500 meter Mark in that race and it's excruciating those thresholds that you have to go through so
So it's to push myself through that the funniest thing about that race, so I hadn't lost it in eight years at that particular point in time and I am was going to last hundred meters and was the first time it actually turned with someone next to me with a hundred meters to go and and I actually came home faster in the last hundred meters than what I did then when I broke the world record by 7 Seconds three years earlier, so it actually taught me the value of competition in my worst situation that I can actually extrapolate or get more.
Out of myself, even even feeling like that but the pain was yeah, I actually said I'm going to retire if I can't get better after those Olympics. I'm actually had to retire from the sport because I didn't want to race like that again.
Why are you doing like they're testing than
hockey? Yeah. Yeah. We were doing what what do you remember what it would have been after that, you know, it's funny. It was never that high after my 15, but I think I hit about a 12 after that where the 200 I get hit a 13 or 14 and the 15 and
We be like a nine but I produced or there because the oxygen saturation wasn't going down into my blood. So yeah, so went up and it's a good point. No one's actually ever mentioned that in P.
It has a great question something I like Snap think about because I mean like at me, you know me like I was always somebody who in still am like just a numbers driven person. So that stuff always just sends little key messages whether it's to me or to bobber too Keen in my trainer of things. We need to improve on her fix or
Maybe what we need to get tested for it, too.
So yeah, not at the lately. No, that was the excruciating but you still want to see stats afterwards. It's like the Olympics is over. That's the last I always of the Olympics and you know, you would have been doing the four by one deadly probably that day as well, you know, and you know, you still want to do everything like, you know, see what you have quickly remove the lactate out of your muscles after you've cooled out and that's one thing that Michael and I was always share is the stats like we can pull out any swimming time any split any world records.
But we know it back
to front. I was going to continue with the the tough race question and Michael you can feel free to go there first, but I also have a question about that training Obsession competitive drive and also just the familiarity with the numbers right? I do have some questions about that. But do you have a particularly tough race or competition that you'd like to mention Michael? I'm going to 200 fly. I'm really happy. It was only 200 meters.
And in 2016 have been 201 meters I would have lost that one sticks out. Other than that like I I look back at you know, most of my races and I can say they were pretty much pain free, but that was just because I was prepared that literally see the only reason so, you know, I was probably 75 80 percent of the time really prepared and and you know
Of and like 10 to 12 or kind of my fake 65 70 percentage.
Let's talk about prep since that's
that's where I was going to head next. I'm looking at a quote from your coach Michael from 2003 and he's referring to both of you guys and he's asked about the similarities between the two of you and he said this is from an interview at some point. They both enjoy training. It's not an ordeal for them. They're both really aware of what's going on.
In practice in relation to their times speed where everyone is and most importantly where they aren't training compared to their goals. And I'm sure you guys get questions about competitive drive all the time. So I don't want to obsess on that phrasing exactly but is that familiarity with the numbers and that awareness common across other team members or is that something that is abnormally developed in the two of you and if so,
Have any theories on why that is yeah. I think I like a lot of it really is just god-given feel and ability. Right like, you know for me like I'm somebody who is really a feel swimmer and I was taught, you know the process of it. So I was taught to swim as efficiently as I possibly could at all times. So, you know, I think that's really what allowed me to be able to do the, you know, the repeats and feel the exact times with the
Stroke counts or you know, whatever we were trying to do. But also just I mean for me it was like training training. I knew I had to be perfect if I ever wanted to do something that no one had ever done right? Like I was trying to compete and do things that people had never seen before. In the Olympics and swimming. So it's like I had to you know from a workout standpoint. I had to be as hungry as possible and and you know, Bob kind of says jump and I'm
Always saying how high and and you know, I always wanted to break as many world records as I possibly could so that's why I love training and you know, I know that you can ask a key and I think he'd agree that you put the two of us in a pull together training it is I mean, it's pretty much like work or trip. We're going toe-to-toe and no matter what it is no matter what stroke it is just basically trying to rip each other's head off and just the pure love and competition of what we do. I
that's something that made us very special but I mean like the feel I think that's you know, that's something that only one two, three four percent of people five percent of people in the top of all sports. Probably really have any idea what we're talking about.
It's quite it's quite funny. I think just when Michael was talking that nice got to think of the movie Days of Thunder when they're in the wheelchair and the hospital and they come forward and then the other one pushes forward. That's exactly how Michael and I trained together it.
Just just oh constantly pushing each other and trying to take it to the next level and you just disregard the pain and that the goal is always more important. The outcome is always more important than what you have to go through. I think that's the way we always approached
it. I'd love to you as background for people listening provide some context on how the two of you know each other and those in the swimming world will know that the history and the similarities from in trajectory and so on. But either of you could take a stab at this
This so I'll let you know maybe Grant if you want to go first, just to describe the backstory. How did you guys get to know each other?
It's really funny. I remember hearing Michael. I mean there's a lot happening in our country right now because it's a 20 year anniversary since the Sydney Olympic Games. So there's plenty going on and that was Michaels first Olympics and I remember when you got forth I think of the the tournament of fly there and it's like a fifteen-year-old in the Senate now servants. Whom was it V come on man?
Happy let's close the both those so I'll try to make one next to it. So remember just thinking wow, they would have freaked a 15 year olds comfy though. I wonder if we'll ever hear of him again. So and then the next year when you broke the tone of meter butterfly world record of the world championships. Was that 152? Am I right on that?
No, I'm 54. What I was 46 for deer. Yeah for 650 49 and and spring
so and then I couldn't believe that a 6.
Ten-year-old actually did that and I got to you know, sort of no Michael from from that moment moving forward and then you know, then we got to train together and I think I just saw eye-to-eye on Michael on things like the approach towards swimming the approach towards competition. How did you end up
training together just for those who might say, you know you both sound like you have struck New Jersey accents, but I
suspect you're from different places.
How did you end up training together
back in 2003 Michael and his coach Bob?
Just came over to Australia for a coaching conference. And so he spent a few weeks in an Australia. So we ended up training then and I think at that point in time, we really got to know each other and I saw Michaels level of application to towards his training and all the new things that he was trying to bring to the sport like the underwater off every single War which you know for your listeners Tim not meet too many people know when you're in the middle of a race and you're at like the 200 300 400 meter Mark and then you try and push and go 15.
Meters off the wall. It is one of the most difficult things that a person can ever do it's like a free diver right in the last little bit of holding their breath. It is tough and and Michael started doing all these sorts of things that I thought man. I wonder if that'll actually work and and so I saw just how creative and Innovative in the sport that he was and he was just a great guy like you just a really good just enjoyed hanging out there we go out to dinner and do things together and I think
that the basis of our
friendship was kind of
2003 kind of springboard from there and every time we saw each other at Meats because we obviously be traveling all the time. We just always connected and got along. Well we and we had a lot of mutual respect for each other and what each other was bringing to the sport and and also there was another sort of counterpart of mine Ian Thorpe who's through that era and I think both Michael and I had a lot of respect for and so, you know what all spend a lot of time together and respect what each other was doing for the sport at that time too.
And you mentioned I'm going to do
Follow up here with with you ground. Then I'm going to come back to you Michael to ask you what you first noticed about Grant to you grant when you mentioned Innovation and new things being brought to the sport. What else did you notice? What were some other examples that you saw in Michael or through
Michael? Michael is the sort of guy that you never ever want to say that he's not going to do something. You never want to be critical of Michael because he will stick it.
So far up you it's not funny and not many competitors do that. If I actually said something about one of my competitors or try to intimidate them a little bit not even meaning to half the time it would get under their skin, you know, it could almost go into their performance in a negative way do that to Michael and improve his performance by about four hundred percent level early on even when we play golf today if I'm betting on him on the last hole. It's like this intensity of focus and athletic prowess.
Lewis and everything else you can imagine that makes you great just comes into play even if he's had the worst 17 holes before and
so from a 20 handicapped or zero and no time and yeah just on one hole just to stick it to him.
Yeah, and I keep testing it right because I'll start GM up before that hole just to see if my theory about him is correct and 100% of the time. I'm proven right? So that's probably one of the other things about Michael and
That's that's an interesting characteristic that I haven't seen in many athletes across a lot of sports that are able to have that ability to increase performance to that extent because of maybe a slight bit of criticism or questioning. So that was one of the other things I really noticed about him very very quickly
have some additional questions about that, but I'll hit snooze on those Michael. What did you notice about Grant? What were your some of your first impressions? I don't know if you guys are
Are the listeners can pick up but I mean it's a kid growing up. Like I was a mess with swimming geek. I was a nerd like I was very into it. I was trying to learn anything. I possibly could but also like I just respected, you know other great athletes other great swimmers and and growing up idolizing, you know, some of the Great's that walk before hacky and I you know, I just I learned so much history. So being able to understand swimming from a global level very early on through my sister in a way and and
I just really connected with him. And and as you heard with with Thorpe as well, those two guys are probably the two closest swimming friends that I have to this day. You know, I feel like I was closer with with the Aussies that I was really with the Americans and and so it was kind of strange but you know, like I I do remember those two thousand and three days, you know, Bob and I were going back to some of those old sets a few weeks ago hockey and
Pretty good, seeing some of those kicking set some of the pulling sets the underwater stuff that we were doing with fins. I mean just everything and and that's what I mean. Like, you know, there aren't many athletes that can really take it to that level back-to-back days. And you know, that was something that I saw in hacky and obviously I respect the hell out of and the chance that we got to spend together was always very special is very meaningful and you know, obviously he turned into
You know more of a brother than anything else and it's been cool to see it's been oh my gosh, unbelievable. So many great stores. I'm a scatterbrain. So I'm popping all over the place and I feel like I'm gonna take some of your questions away. So I'll stop feel free to bounce around scatter brand that I've made an entire career out of it on this podcast. So feel free grant. I want to ask you about intensity and I'm going to do it it in a somewhat sideways.
It's Fashion, but both of you are known for being beasts in training and having just ungodly work capacities and I don't know if I'm getting the hours right, please correct me if I'm wrong but 30 to 40 hours of training a week maybe more at times. I want you to correct that and you're in your answer if need be but it seems like the combination of that Volume Plus the intensity that you're both famous for.
Would drive anyone into the ground and I'm just curious how you prevented that from happening if maybe you could speak to that Graham.
Yeah, I think you know first and foremost around the 30 to 40 hours. That's right. We would train anywhere from some kind of five to seven hours a day six days a week. I know Michael would do seven days a week. I think he trained like five hundred thirty-five hundred forty days straight into Beijing so he knows all about that.
Yeah, what was that
little more than that, but it's
okay
five five or six straight
years. Yeah. So I mean that degree of application is one thing but you're right. You have to be doing a better father harder than the guy on the other side of the world. And and I think the goal the outcome was just so strong the desire and I think when something is so meaningful and purposeful to you as an individual you're willing to do anything and
Funny the body does get used to it to an extent you get used to getting up at 4:45, you know doing that eight kilometers doing it to the intensity that you need to then going into the gym for 90 minutes doing that then going back in the afternoon and doing it all again. So and it's amazing how much more you can absorb then what you give yourself credit for but one of the things I always tried to do is whenever my coach would set something like it insanely hard set and if I've finished it I would do one or two more reps and he was known as
As you know having one of the top three intense programs in the world from a lot of the physiologists out there. So I always just try to take it to the next level every single time. I knew with my event which probably is different to some of the finesse that Michael had an in his events in terms of his underwater and skills for me was about being tough and and he's trained with a great 1500 meters from a called Eric Van. So he knows the intensity and the mindset and I was very similar to Eric in terms of if you have to pull me out of the water after this session and put me in an ambulance. I do not care as long as I
Every outside of myself and you've got to show up with that attitude every day because that's how top and guys are that you're racing and it's just it's just the way it is and I think when you get the winds, it keeps you going, right? It keeps you going to the next step. It makes the the bits a little bit more digestible and and I just love that feeling. I just love that feeling afterwards. And and I knew when I rocked up to race day that if I'd done that work that no one was ever going to touch me in my race
and that's like the thing though because it's like, you know like
Their day is obviously you don't want to go Grant right like that like every day it wasn't perfect for us. So it's like, you know, like on those days you have to be able to find that 10 20 30 50 percent, you know instead of zero where you could just full-on pump the whole day the workout. Skip like a lazy like do whatever the hell you wanted to so it's like, you know like to be the as consistent as we both were like throughout our career literally every every single session every single stroke matter. Hmm, so
Like that that's against probably for the listeners out there. Like it was the smallest finest details. You could possibly think about you know, we had to think or we had to go through and fine-tune daily. Like I almost talked to it as like you're going to college and and the top level is the 10,000 level class of the Thousand level class. Whatever the hell you want to call it, you know, if you skip a few of those classes like you're missing key steps that are going to help you at the very top level when the lights are on.
When you know, you might have had a bad night's sleep or your roommate might be sick or maybe the food in the dining hall wasn't very good. Your air conditioning doesn't work, you know, so it's like all of the things that you're doing daily are prepping you for any kind of situation that you're going to face at the Olympics at World Championships. Whatever your big event is totally and I suppose that's something that wasn't in my mind when I asked the question and that is it's not just about developing more strength. It's
Just about developing The Brute attributes. It's also about the smallest technical details that you have to train to be second nature for competition.
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Are there any particular Michael tools or techniques for Recovery that you found to really pull their weight? So to speak and have an impact because as a as a mirror, you know five-foot-eight meet Cube. I'm not really built for hydrodynamics. I think about training as you did for five to six years straight and I just can't imagine human body withstanding that
Without some portfolio of recovery techniques. Was there anything that stands out we had to pee like we had to be on top of everything, you know, like trying to like I was saying before trying to do something that no one's ever done before, you know have their give yourself the chance. It's like you really have to approach it and every single different way possible than ever has been done before so, you know, there is no blueprint for it. So for us it was, you know one step at a time.
And for me to be able to swim at such a high level every single day I had to be on top of whether it's nutrition sleeping drinking water, you know, like I treated my body like I was a Ferrari no, like I treated my body like I'm a high performance race car because I'm asking it to do so many things. So, you know, I was sleeping probably 8 to 10 hours a night with a two-hour nap during the day. I was eating eight to 10,000 calories a day. I used to have massages.
Is I had one that like PT strength conditioning guy for 15 years that was did all of my massages all of my stretching all of my grass stand. All of my cupping II had to be super super anal about it because I needed to ask my body to do so many things every single day. So I guess I'm kind of old-school. Like I never really got into cryo or anything like that but still to this day like I I work out six seven days a week and
and you know for me to be able to do everything I need to do from playing golf having enough energy with the kids and and doing everything I need to do personally. I have to recover so I am stretching probably 45 minutes a day. I'm probably I stubbing once maybe twice a week I go to acupuncturists copying twice a week. So, you know, I think LeBron said something about it earlier in the year. He spends a million dollars a year and recovery and honestly, like that just makes sense to me because if he's like,
From what I just said, he's asking his body to do so much at such a high level. It's like you have to treat it like it like it should be treated right, you know, you have to give it everything it needs and and that's the very basic stuff. So when I have all of my stats like blood work Sleep Numbers lactate numbers anything you can possibly imagine about health or recovery. I have it log for the last 15 years 20 years of my career. So I was extremely
extremely anal. Yeah, I'm and I was very anal about it because I needed to be I was selfish in a way. Yeah that makes all the world of sense and I think and think we're going to come back to that that focus and the pros and cons of it Grant. I'd love to ask you about anything you have found helpful for sleep and that comes to mind because Michael you just mentioned it. You also mentioned LeBron James who's been on this podcast and has a number of different.
Techniques including using Calm app and other technological tools for helping with getting to sleep. Did you find anything in particular? I mean aside from training many many hours a day, which I'm sure helps for sleep during your training or post competitive career.
Yeah. I always found you know that some of the apps are great. Oh, I actually used to put on one of these apps that used to just have the rain water coming down and falling on the leaves and
And those sorts of just calming type of things. It's really funny today. The best way of finding fall asleep is just breathing exercises and and just focusing away from from everything that you know, kind of matters in your life around work and you know, the things that you're responsible for that, you know, normally keep you awake at night, but it's quite funny. I'm to Michael's point just around recovery, you know sleep is obviously the ultimate thing to rest the body and I track everything, you know, I'm sitting here with you know, a one watch on what
And another one on the other hand. I don't even know if either of them tell the time but they're tracking my heart rate variability that I sleep in the track of my recovery that you know, and I checked these stats like there's no tomorrow like I'm still a professional athlete. I think you're just hardwired to be like that. But you know, and it depends what phase you're going through career, you know those points where I had injuries and my shoulder would just be my shoulders would be aching at night. So I'd be sitting there with bags of peas on my shoulders just to get the inflammation down and you know,
there's so many different sort of Cycles throughout my career where yeah, you'd have trouble sleeping. Sometimes I would feel that the pressure too much coming into competitions after time for some reason and and those are the the difficult times where you know, you need your recovery more than ever, but you're finding it hard to be able to get that rest. So, you know, what's good for one person is not necessarily good for another but what I know today is if I just did a lot more meditation a lot more things of slowing down a lot more mindfulness. Those are the sorts of things.
That would have helped me a lot more throughout my career because they're great techniques that I use today and I probably sleep better today because of you know, just the foundation of knowledge that I've been able to build over the time because we were just so anal and just so focused on recovery and trying to find ways to go. Okay. The body is gone. How am I going to give it back to Michael's point? This is not a tractor. It's a Ferrari and if a bolts a little bit loose this thing will not perform. So everything has got to be right. I used to want to walk somewhere.
I would sit down as soon as I got there just so my hip flexors wouldn't tighten up because I wasn't as good a kicker as what Michael was Orion thought so I had to do everything on my legs. I was better on the upper body. I could do that. I could pull it's called pulling just you know, you sort of tie your legs up and you know swim with your arms only that was my strength, but my lawyer wasn't so I used to just be fixated on that every minute of the day to make sure whenever I rocked up to training and particularly competition My legs will lose my hip flexors had full range and and I was going to get the most out.
Out of them. So yeah, it's an obsession and that's the way it needs to be.
Yeah, I was spending some time Grant with one of our mutual friends whose is deep in training right now and we were hiking and he said this is great. I just can't do too much hiking and I said why not and he said because I don't want my ankles to be overly stable or strengthen because I need the flexibility. I want the the looseness in the ankles and I was like, wow, that's not something I hear every
day. It's the only sport.
You want to loose angle ankles you look at tennis players. I got all the support in place. We are doing the opposite will have a panel of wood where you know, you got a strap across the top and you Chuck your foot in there and you're leaning back to try and Craig more flexion and angle and that's the thing like Michael and Ian Thorpe incredibly flexible and incredibly strong and Incredibly mobile and I didn't have that that last part around the the mobility that these guys have because think about it, you'll feel like flippers in the water. So if you get that extra bit of
Angle and you get that flick right at the end. It's going to propel you just that little bit more and you know, I'm sitting here at an Olympic games where I got two silver medals. I think it's over the course of about you know, 1200 meters of racing and there by 0.2 of a second in total. So, you know every little bit matters
Michael I want to revisit a name that has come up a lot so far in this conversation and that is Ian Thorpe and it ties into what Grant was saying about
Using critical or negative or doubting comments as Rocket Fuel for your motivation in the course of doing homework for this conversation. Came across a note on Wikipedia that said Ian Thorpe Point. Yes. So there's two of them that I remember so Wikipedia, feel free to correct any of this. It's not so much a direct.
Quote, it just says Thorpe initially said that it would be highly unlikely for Phelps to win eight gold medals at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing Phelps use the remarks as motivation and tape the words to his locker during the games. So I just wanted to fact-check that is that true a
hundred percent without question. Yeah
the word that you put on your locker, you know, I think at that time Bob and I were you know, a lot of the major chunk of my career I'd say we were big on
Highlighting different quotes or times and you know that people had done or things that we were trying to do. So, you know, like for me like every morning I got out of bed and I shall my goal sheet of the times I wanted to do that year or at the Olympics or whatever written down. So when I was getting out of bed, I was getting it done with a purpose. So then when I got to the pool, that's where that quote was. Just honestly if I was kind of having an off day I use that as as hacky said
a little extra fuel. That was something that if somebody did say it was impossible. I was going to shove that so far up that I was going to make him eat their words no matter what like that was that the there is no if ands or buts about it and again in 2016, I believe he said something along the lines of it'll be impossible or almost impossible to see somebody over the age of 30 when an individual gold medal and funny enough.
I was giving him shit about it after the Olympics in 16 and he goes I know how you work. He said so I was helping you give that, you know, get extra fuel to really give you some extra motivation to really make sure you kick some ass so, you know, he did because it's like to Grant's point though. Like I knew Grant probably better than any other athlete in the world. I knew sort be better than any other athlete in the world and and you know the same way for them, you know, like we just
We knew about each other because we all were just trying to learn whatever we could and use it into our everyday lifestyle to help us accomplish the goals that we wanted.
And to to Ians credit or defense, I'll I will read one of the actual quotes that isn't Wikipedia in which he says quote. I'm really proud of him. Not just because you want a Gold's rather. It's how much he's grown up and matured into a great human being never in my life. Have I been so happy to have been proved wrong. So ultimately was proved wrong and as we're talking about this translation of using the negative or the critical
Oil into Rocket Fuel like you said Grant it is at least in my experience, which is very limited, but it's rare to see the one other exception that I can think of and maybe you guys will have have seen this is Michael Jordan in the Last Dance where every episode there is an example of this and someone will say something to him and then they'll say Fuck shouldn't have done that and he comes back and break some Universal records.
In the next quarter and it was so remarkably consistent and yet when you flash forward and you are watching this this current day footage of Michael you can't help but get the feeling that he is still very angry, but he is lost Target at which he can direct this anger. And so I'm curious to hear from you Michael because I've lived in my life with a lot of anger and have
You found that to cut both ways what has been your experience with anger during the competitive years or afterwards. I mean naturally heck you can agree. I I carry a lot of a lot of anger and and a lot of that I would say stems from my childhood and you know some of the things that I experienced but I also think angers is really really what what did feel me on those.
Days where I just didn't want to swim, you know, those those were the biggest things it was almost like turning a switch on in a way, you know, I'll say now knowing what I know about depression knowing what I know about anxiety mental health and and about myself as well. I know that I can't approach my life or anything that I do in my life like I did in swimming just because I guess I could say I was a professional or I was a doctor or whatever.
The hell you want to call me in the swimming world for like I understood swimming, you know, I'd like to thank almost better than anybody and you know, definitely a feel for it. So, you know, I don't have enough practice doing what I'm doing now in life. So, you know, I do have to take steps back and take deep breaths or you know, I found that through covid my wife and I as communication level has gone up another level, you know, so it's like little things like that for me. I'm
Simply learning more and more about myself and about why I am how I am. So yeah. Do I still get angry of course, but I play a lot of golf. I you know, as I said, I work out six or seven days a week. I'm I lift weights 3 days a week by for anywhere 60 to 90 minutes and then the other four days. I'm either swimming riding a stationary bike or I am on an elliptical so, you know, those are kind of
A outlets for me, but it does get scary at times and you know, I will say hockey has always been there for me through any single moment of my life through those dark times, you know, but I can also say, you know during this quarantine it, you know, it's been difficult for me. You know, I've been very open about that recently and and through all of this and and you know, I can imagine that it's been difficult for more and more people and and you know, I'll say the one thing, you know to the listeners out there who are listening.
Nothing to it. You're not alone. You know, that's the one thing I truly truly want to repeat you'll hear me say a lot of time to this podcast, but you know, you are definitely not alone with your thoughts your emotions, but if you are afraid or you're scared or nervous reach out to somebody for help and trained therapists or trained doctor. This is that it's just a very uncertain time for everybody in the world. So, how is the little rat so go ahead and enjoy France. That's why we have a long format you been
Dark Times I'd like to talk about this because I feel like both of you have been very open about this which is a huge service. I mean, it is a huge public service to people who feel alone and it's a huge public service to people who feel like they are uniquely flawed or are in a place of shame because the mental health and depression and so on can be very stigmatized still Michael. Could you speak to
When you knew you needed help or when you hit rock bottom, could you just tell the story of that moment or moments? The first time I experienced depression I'd say it was back in 2004, you know coming back after all that great success and obviously expect it to continue and you know you get back and it's good for you know a week or so and then you kind of feel like you fall off the face of the Earth. So for me it was it was just beginning to open talk about these things.
things honestly, like I felt there was a weight lifted off my shoulders, you know, these were things that I carried for probably 20 years 15 years and and you know, when I really do get into those dark times, I basically isolate myself and give everybody the Heisman because I almost feel like I am causing more stress to their life or I'm a burden or this that or the other so like I go strictly internal and almost like I pick its
Abs are like internal scabs that you know, really hurt. So like I must try to inflict pain but not literally inflict pain so it gets bad and when it does get bad it really Spirals and I'll say one thing hockey hockey was over here. I was at two years ago
happy. Yeah two years ago it 2018.
Yeah. I mean that was that was one of the scariest ones that you know, I've really experienced and and I honestly, I feel like I'm alone. I feel like everybody's attack.
Seeing me and it's just it's uncomfortable feeling but you know, II basically I guess the easiest way for describing it would be like a turtle going back into its shell. I want more than anything to feel like I am a human being because I feel like that's what I am. You know, I feel like yeah, you know, I had a great talent and you know, I put my mind to something and shit. I didn't give up I went through ups and downs and you know, I was able to accomplish some pretty amazing goals, but you know, it's at times like I feel like I'm a you know, almost a piece of meat and
At an object and you know, I think especially during those times when I start going there when I'm in dark times and start going there. It just it is just downward spirals. So that's why you know, I alluded earlier to talking about how much my mind and my wife's communication has really just grown through quarantine because I would say I had a similar incident, you know, like I had in 2018 where you know, it was very scary and and you know, I know Nicole is doing everything she could
could help and you know, we were almost forced to grow and to change has a couple because of the current situation and the situation at the time it was difficult, but honestly, like I think that's the coolest thing for me that that I am so excited about with having depression or with having anxiety, you know, because it it honestly makes me who I am and you know, it's I understand it's never going to be fixable and and it's a part of me for the rest of my life, but you know what? I think it's something that
I want to learn more about and something I'm excited to wake up every day and have that chance to learn more about so, you know, that's why I'm so you know I've spoken about my wife and I just just communicating so much more. It's crazy to even think that that was possible but just going over Leaps and Bounds, you know, just learning more and more about how we both work and things we need to be careful of so, we don't trigger one another. It's been a almost a blessing in disguise for us if I could.
Just jump that you said whatever you did was always and if I'm if I'm misquoting, please please correct me. But for those who aren't familiar, could you describe what made 2018 scary? What was the experience? I mean 2018. I actually took a pair of golf shoes and I hit myself in the head with them. That was that was one of the very last times that I tried to inflict pain on myself. And and I knew at that point like that was like that right there.
I've never done something like that. I never even thought about doing something like that and the fact that I did that right. There was a message for me. It was you know, it was a red flag so, you know coming back to the house and and you know, I had kind of a meltdown but you know with Grant talking to Grant talking to my wife, you know, like that was that was just a learning experience. They're like for me like I basically am, you know, a pot of water like at the at the very last second. I'm ready to blow and when I blow it's pretty bad and it gets pretty
Pretty ugly. You know, I was I would say throughout my career. I'm great at compartmentalizing. I would say I could probably win a few more gold medals at that, but that's not something to be proud of so, you know, so I think like, you know, that's that's one thing that I've learned, you know to just just really talk about, you know, I've learned more about my emotions and and if I have something I don't like I talk about it or ask questions about it, you know, so I think you know with the experiences that I've gone through in the struggles that I've gone through.
I feel like I have almost let my guard down in a way, you know, if that kind of makes sense, you know, like drop my shoulders like taking a deep breath and and you know, just tried to relax, you know, because I think throughout my whole entire life I've been trying to shave hundreds is of a second off my time, right and and now it for everyday life. I'm trying to slow it down. So it's crazy now for me to look at life. So it's yeah the the last four years have been interesting but that in a 2018 you know that
That to this day was one of the scariest times of my life that and 2014 after my second DUI. We talked about sleeping earlier and I have opened up more and more about this story just because it's it's a part of me. So basically throughout a whole entire life throughout my entire life. I most of my swimming career. I we were prescribed Ambien for traveling for trips, you know, the try to acclimate to times and and
That night after my DUI, I was happy that I only had two Ambien left that was asleep a that I had and who knows what would have happened if I had more, you know, I think those two moments for me are the two scariest moments of my life and and you know recently, you know, I'd say within the last handful of weeks that I've I've had a couple real scary breakdowns where you know, I almost really start shaking because I just don't know what to do. I don't know how to control anything and
I yeah, that's about it. Thank you for sharing Michael. Yeah, but it's like, you know, like like honestly you for me. Yes it is. It's wild to think about its while to talk about but you know, it's what makes me me and you know how if I can learn from just understanding why why I'm certain ways or why I react certain ways. Then I feel like I'm setting myself up to be a better person and at the end of the day, that's all I want. I want to learn more.
You've heard us talk about stats numbers. Like I want to know stats. I want to know numbers. I don't know why I like like I just had I don't know. Why why why did every single question that you can possibly think about? So, you know, like I just I always know there's so many other options out there and and you know, if I come to a dead end I can reach out to one of those options or you know, I can backtrack a few steps and take a different route. And so yeah, you know, I think really trying to simplify life and trying to slow things down for me is probably those are the two things that I would say.
Sad focus on on a daily daily basis. Yeah, just to just to give myself a chance. Yeah and Grant I'm going to come back to you in just a minute because I want to do a similar Expedition into some of the dark chapters to hear your stories before we get to that. I am looking at just a paragraph from an ESPN article. That includes you Michael and I want to read
Small portion of it and ask a question. So here's the portion says in treatment Phelps earned the nickname preacher Mike because each day began chapter of The Purpose Driven Life a book given to him by former Baltimore Ravens linebacker and good friend Ray Lewis. I don't know if you would still recommend this book or how you feel about it. But are there any books or resources that you have found particularly helpful in your journey in experiencing these things so I have
A very close friend of mine who I asked I feel very comfortable opening opening up to and asking a lot of questions about I think you know, you know, I'm talking about hockey. He passes me a bunch of different books and and some of the ones recently I guess like I was never somebody like to read books and and when Ray gave me that book I wasn't I wasn't spiritual and anyway, like I had you know, I wasn't religious but you know, I think through my journey I hundred percent and
Spiritual without question there is a power that is greater than me. I don't know what it is, you know, but but through my journey, I feel like I've learned so much from the books that I have received. The Purpose Driven Life is one amazing. One The Power of Now is an amazing one ego is the enemy is one that I go back to a lot self to Art of not giving a fuck as a great one. I loved it takes What It Takes I thought that was a great one just a little thing like little
all books like that where I can do for me whenever I'm listening I tend to do audibles and and you know, I am listening to it. I really just it's what we all have what we're all supposed to do. But I love just taking little small pieces that are similar to things that I did in my career, you know, like for me to be as efficient as I was in swimming I had to learn the absolute bottom line of every single stroke, right? Like I had to be as efficient as I could with my body that I was given so it's like I
Almost done that in ways. It's open my mind and some really interesting new thoughts. It's giving me, you know, new Journeys to travel down, you know roads to go down. But yeah, I mean II would say I cycle through a lot of those depending on as you heard before the the dark moods that I'm in. I went back to the subfloor out of not giving a fuck just because I felt like I was just attacking myself too much and and I just needed to get a handle of of a few things and
and do what I'm teaching my kids, you know, take a lion breath take a deep breath every once in a while and relax, you know, it's not it's not, you know, it's not about racing the clock and every single thing that you do in your life. So that's one one big big key thing for me is just trying to be as simple as in every form of life as I possibly can and and it's honestly it's looking at my kids and that's the greatest example, you know, I mean, we were talking about it earlier my two oldest boys were playing
Metal trash can the other day, you know, one of the trash cans were you step on it? The lid pops up one of them is banging one is banging on the top like the drum. The other one is stomping on the lid and I was like Boomer what are you guys doing and without missing a beat? He looks over and said Dad. I've never seen one of these things before and well I couldn't do anything with start laughing. So I was like, all right. Yeah, whatever like go ahead like meanwhile, there's a hundred different noises going on and like my I mean I was going crazy, but I just I laugh.
Like I'm at that damn near fell on the ground laughing. I was like that's what kids are like they they are the best example of really living in the moment and it's you know for me, I feel like having having the time that I have around around my kids during this quarantine. Like I feel like I've I have a few things that I can kind of log into the memory bank and go back to when Boomers pressing that red button that I hate to be pressed inside of me and he's trying to get my nerves and go crazy on me. So but kids are kids and honestly I've seen
The end of one of the coolest things is they want to be us so bad. And honestly, they just love us and and you know, it's not for me told you I told you we'd get tears for me. Honestly. It's taken some of the dark times that I've been through, you know, just you know, just literally being crying and having her kids come up and give you a hug like those things like that right there, you know, it's the greatest thing and on the planet so
Yeah, like there. I mean, it's just been it's been a treat and as a dad it's the greatest feeling in the world. Thank you, Michael.
Grant we're going to go back into the depths here a bit. I was going to say if you want to keep if you want he's gone. You can't it doesn't bother me that I'm good
through all of the Motions this listening to that just going back to you know, 2018 and
that day when you know, Michael
is, you know, not Michael or was Michael, you know, just the elite the other side of success. So, I don't know I just think you know, it was tough to
to listen to How I actually have water in my eyes just listening to it because it was you know, seeing one of your best mates that you've known for so long and been through everything together just go through that. It was it was brutal. It was really really tough sounds brutal. Hmm. What have what have your personal experience? What did the dark times look like
for you or are there any particular instances that come to mind in terms of knowing when you needed help or hitting rock bottom the
Single say at the outset. It's really funny as an athlete you you would told from day one. I mean I started swimming when I was four and being competitive when I was five like so everything throughout my childhood and throughout my sporting career was hey if there's an obstacle go through it overcome it beat it. You're injured you're sick, whatever just turn into a gladiator and just keep going forward that is your job. So and it was almost like adversity was your friend and you used to I call the
Expression now with mental health that's like I got used to iron fisting my way through difficult periods in life. And that's not right. That's great as an athlete. That's a great attribute to have to push through pain and overcome those challenges to get the outcome. But in life that actually doesn't work and I found that out the hard way and I realize how real mental health was. So I think you know for me, I remember I've been through the ups and downs and I really never recognize that about
Self because I just kind of thought okay, just put your boots back on and keep going but, you know a few years ago when you know went through a really public divorce here in Australia and everything that followed from that innuendo and speculation and you know people questioning your value set just undid me and I just didn't realize how much it undid me and how much it took me down and you know got to a point where you know early 2017, you know, just kind of one more thing. It's one more thing where I was sitting in a
In a hotel room completely isolated two security guards on that floor. So no one would come near my room, you know sitting on the front page of the newspaper and then use just what's going on with me. And and then I think the four days that I had there and I was texting Michael at the time. I literally had over a thousand messages in my phone on WhatsApp on my email and all my SMS within about a three hour time frame and I think I got back to three people and Michael was one of them.
Nelson Schmidt who lived with Michael to where the only people that I got back to and I think I'm use words. Like I'm just scared and everyone thinks you're Invincible for what you've done but you know, like everybody else you just have those vulnerabilities and when it's so public it just exaggerate the situation and amplifies it and creates another layer of complexity that you have to deal with and I just made a commitment to myself. I think at the end of that that I'm never going to allow myself to get to this spot again, like any time that I feel
Like, you know, you're getting pushed to that edge or things are going wrong. I'm just going to adopt the strategies that I now know instead of denial because I would always put myself in denial. I wouldn't let myself be vulnerable and even my my fiance Charlene now, like if I start talking about the way I'm feeling and isolation are going through a stressful period and she goes off she is so proud of me. She goes I just love it when you're vulnerable and I said, I feel like a bit of a pussy to be honest. But yeah, cool.
It's like, you know, and then I'm like, wow, I feel better afterwards, you know that that open and honest transparency and my relationship is better as well. So it's like well doing doing this vulnerability thing, which was the number one thing that I found I had to tap into going through those stages in life and phases whenever they Embark upon you and they come across at the weirdest times to like even when things are great and going well, sometimes that's it can be a low point after that you have to deal with that so
Yeah, I mean I made that decision back in 2017. I basically live with Michael most of that year and he was he was my biggest supporter and you know when I went and did you know therapy and got some help he was a guy who drove me there and drop me off and we had talked still to 3 a.m. Sometimes, you know later in the morning and he'd come in and wake me up in the morning with the dogs and Boomer calling on the bed all over me, which I really appreciated that, you know, it's those sorts of times where you know, we will just always be there for each other but
People see us as these people have achieved great things and won multiple Olympic gold medals and world records and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you don't, you know fall into the same
fate as everybody else when it comes to
mental health or just being a human and yeah, I had to learn those things. Definitely the hard way
you were mentioning the vulnerability with your significant other. I was just having a conversation last week with a coach
So you could really consider on some level a therapist and he said to me Candor is the ultimate aphrodisiac
it seems it seems
to have a lot of benefits not just singular benefits and you mentioned strategies. I'd love to hear what other rules were strategies you have found or developed for yourself so that when you when you sense yourself edging towards the brink you're better able to real.
Of away from it.
I think I'm just doing everything proactively I exercise like Michael, you know, six six days a week. I'd try and make myself have a recovery day, which is hard when you've got personalities like ours. We don't think we know the importance of recovery, but we just like to keep going and going and going so that's one thing the other thing that I do, it's funny. I went to stop, you know, sort of drinking for a year and then I got to a year and I was
It's kind of like, you know, what I don't even feel like drinking anymore. It kind of it's not like I was ever a person who drank Everyday by any means would be far and few between but I could go go hard if we were, you know, having a night with the boys or something like that or use it to escape. So, you know, I stopped drinking so. I got to a year and I was like, you know what I don't even feel like that anymore. It's not something in my life that I value or I like or a brings value to me. So now I don't do that. I also make sure that I
Get enough sleep. That's really important for me. That's I eat very healthy, you know diet has been a big part and just that whole sort of Health regime that I have to follow just to make sure that I'm in a good space. So and the one thing that I still find difficult that I do and you know, we just touched on as I talk about a talk about where I'm at how I'm feeling why I'm feeling like that instead of bottling it up Michael and I we are the kings of compartmentalizing things and actually just locking him away. I'll deal with that box when I need to
Deal with that box, but unfortunately that box is growing and being fueled and what a good 10. It's not good. It's not good at all. And Michael and hundred is best. So I try and jump into that box and I try and work through it try and get it out. And and and so I think for me it's all that sort of proactive stuff that I'm doing that and I feel more settled in my life now than I ever have and you know what and I know this with Nicole because I know you know, Michael's wife extremely well and the the
For human being that she is just have good cheers for Michael in that situation how much he cares and loves him like it's actually beautiful to watch. It makes me you know, I because I've been through this stuff with her, you know, like and you know, we've spoken about how we were there for Michael and you know, Charlene's the same for me. Like I just that Partnership of someone who gets you like she gets me she gets my my drive and ambition and yet that that other mental, you know, sort of fault that your whatever you want to call it run Ruby.
See those things that that our imperfect she gets that and she likes it and works with me on it. And I so I think I haven't necessarily had the right Partnerships in life as well. So I think Tim that's a really important part of who you surround yourself by but that that significant other can make him break in many respects to because they've got to connect with a unique personality which I know Michael and I certainly share uniqueness like that. So they're kind of the things that really matter and I'd look it's been
Journey took to get to know all those things because I've made so many mistakes along the way but I just know what makes me feel like more of me now and feels like a purpose and the things that you know, help support and maintain
that Grant. Do you see a someone like a therapist on a regular basis or are they used only in cases of emergency are beginning to
redline I do if I've gone through, you know, I had sort of period I won't say and I consistent sort of week to week month to month.
basis, but if I am going through a stressful period I've definitely got that support network there and and I'll jump online have a talk get it out because sometimes it's and I've learned is to I didn't have really use a sports psychologist too much when I was swimming because I always thought you know, I was invincible so and that was a weakness if I had to go up into that little did I know that would have really helped me and I might have had a better trophy cabinet then what then what I've got if I recognize that at the time but now
Times family members. I noticed spoke about significant other than but I know family members sometimes aren't necessarily the ones you should be tapping into because the emotion is just too close. So having someone else little bit more objective has the skill set has the understanding someone you can have a different type of conversation with is really important. So definitely got that Network in there tap into it when you know, the the flags kind of come up.
What are the flags like when do you know it's time to take yourself in for a 60,000 mile checkup with professional? What are some of the signs that you notice?
I mean we spoke about anger before Michael, you know was was talking about that and the way he's able to channel it and look there's a negative connotation with anger because it's not always a bad thing. Sometimes anger can push you to get more out of yourself to deliver an outcome that is amazing, you know, so but sometimes it can when you're kind of you're edgy, you're irritable.
You're you know, you're not sleeping. Well, you know, the things just are escaping the mind I think all those kind of, you know, little red flags that sort of start to add up and compound and you just don't removing that stress that wait. They're kind of the things that you start to recognize and go. Hey, I'm going through a bit of you know, this is not just a one-off right now. This is not a to off. This is kind of been a little bit more sustained than what I would like and I think I have a much
greater ability to check in with that. Now then what I've ever had where before it would be like that little box that I said it goes into or just let's just stuff it back in there with the others and I don't let that happen anymore. So yeah, it's just it's mood more than anything else and if it's a sustained Port mu then yeah, that's that's the thing that I go. Okay, we've got to do something about this or you know, I in a situation where I've got twins from a previous marriage and I miss them like crazy when they're not here.
and and the impact that that had on me for so many years that I failed to even really talked about has been a big thing that I just highlight now and I'll just go to show and I'm just like I'm really missing Jagger or Charlie's or you know, and I'll just start to talk about it and then all of a sudden, you know, kind of get on the other side of that so they're kind of the things that I recognize now that that aren't as big a blind spots as they were previously and when you talk to
a professional if you do what is the format look like is it more about
Out really just getting it off your chest and talking to someone or is there a particular type of guidance or a format that is helpful to you.
I have a guy who I tap into and he's almost good comical element to the what his style which I really connected. I love that because he's extremely intelligent very very bright and look I'll write down the things that I'm feeling and that that I feel like I've got a really check in with and get through an ass.
Questions about so I'll do that. So that's the structure I come in with Hill then just pull out stuff on all of that. That just makes it takes the emotion out of it almost it almost goes. It's more pragmatic you goes, you know, this is why that would happen. This is why you feel like that, you know, what your kind of catastrophizing that that's not as big as you seem like and then lll make, you know, comparisons and perspectives around other people other situations and it kind of gives you a different View and it's like he just comes in
and provides these additional lenses that I didn't have that is just given me and I kind of cover off all the topics like that and then and we have a laugh through it all to once you kind of get on the other side of each of those areas. And so I find that that's style has really worked with me. It's a good question Tim. No one's ever actually asked me that before.
Well, it's like, you know if I can get one novel question and you guys have been interviewed 500 million times, so I'm glad too.
Tip to give myself a pat on my bald head for that one and I'll follow it up because you mentioned something that I find very interesting and that is sending something in written form to this therapist beforehand. Is it a stream of Consciousness? I am feeling this because of this and that is it just like one gigantic paragraph or page or is it something else that's just seems like such a Time Saver to provide that context to someone in advance so they can actually put some some thought into how they
Might respond to you. I
think you mean you probably got this sense through the chat, you know Mark and I were very analytical we think through everything and every situation and every outcome. That's the reason we we know, you know every x with respect to our events and you know, the timeline and history of our sport so well and and I think if I'm going to approach something I might as well do it properly and get the absolute most I can out of it. So it's just got points don't point and specific areas like things that have been on my mind situate up points that
Two bullet points, I guess him. Yeah, I can decipher all of that stuff or negative. It's
good when I go over and stay with Michael will go out and I'll say something and he'll repeat it for me. And I was like, yeah what he said because no one everyone sort of looked at me. Like I've got two heads but my mother is the ultimate at deciphering Aussie slang. Yeah, so
Bullet points is exactly what I jot down a point. Yeah docked points. Yeah. So yeah, and so for me that that works so they kind of just cover the areas the topics that have been on my mind or the situation not normally it's more of a situation for me day-to-day. I'm pretty good. It's more if I've come across something that's a sustained stress or I can't work through myself and look at it to be honest that seems to be happening a little bit less in my life. But to say in saying that I know it could intensify at any point in time and I recognize that you've
To always stand top of those things and it's been great for the work that I do now and and the life that I have and the dad that I am I think I've just improved across so many different areas and it's probably where I refer back to sport. I'm like damn. I wish I use that sports psychologist a lot more in tapped into that. I didn't even recognize vulnerability for a split second throughout basically my entire career and I feel like that was a bit of a disaster now, I know actually probably would have set me up better for post sport career as well.
Well seems like a lot of superpowers have on the other side of the coin super weakness is almost by definition, right? Because if you have a if you have a hyper focus on anything in life by definition, you have to neglect other things you cannot you only have so much attention to slice and dice right and if you're using compartmentalization as one of the tools
for
optimizing as a competitor, which
Three competitor. I've interviewed on this podcast seems to be very good at then sort of a price associated with that when it's when it's applied more broadly speaking Michael. Do you do you meet with therapist or professionals on a regular basis? I'm online all the time. I mean with everything with traveling as much as I do I spent a lot of time on talk space. I've worked with talk space for a few years now and and honestly for as much time as we're on our
bones, it's just kind of a no-brainer but also besides that like the heck he's point. I'll be the first one to admit. I still compartmentalize a little bit but I'll say I don't think I would make a Podium anymore if I was competing in it. So I think I've definitely improved but my big thing is just I I pile things up sometimes and like I can't agree with what hockey said and what you were saying as well Tim like when we did that in our career like like I was almost selfish in a way where
Everything I was doing in my life is based around swimming every single decision I made and now at the family it's not that way. My life is different. So I have to take a step back and almost reassess everything. That's why I was saying like really simplifying everything to the smallest form because that's that's what Grant and I you know did during our career and honestly, like I was sitting here taking notes listening to you know, kind of like Grant was Grant does when he you know, kind of feels himself, you know spinning I literally was like, oh my God
That's exactly what I had to do. If I wanted to learn underwater dolphin kick or you know, like I did break it down to the simplest form. So, you know that like that's really what I have to do more and give myself, you know a little bit more credit from time to time where I'm as hard on myself as I am.
You have a tough as person on yourself that I know I
wrote a bra like a Broadband. I'm sitting here looking at like I mean, I can't even I got some of these names that I have on my desk. I'm not I'm not going to repeat but
A key like, you know, like I also like to hack he's pointing like I love writing stuff down writing stuff down to see you know, like especially with dates, you know, because times for me are so important. So if I know I'm going through a dark face, like what was I writing? Like, why was I thinking these things so, you know, like here like I've felt alone or I felt dark lately. So those are things that I have written on my calendar. So like if I sit down I see that I'm like, why was I feeling dark like I have so much to be, you know happy.
I have so much to be proud of like there's so many amazing things going on in this world with me with my life with everything. Like why am I Dart? Why am I afraid? Why do I feel worthless almost so, you know, like I feel like writing stuff down really helps and like that's why I like for listeners out there in particular like if you guys find ways to simplify things because we live in an over a crazy crazy moving fat Larry crazy fast moving world where you know, there's always things trying to get our attention. So if we can simplify things and focus on what's important to us,
You know, I think it just it makes our life easier. Right? Like there's there's less stress to worry about doing and you hear Happy like hockey talk like communicating shit. I made the joke that I learned how to communicate at the age of 30. Yeah. It's it's laugh about it because I like I was really good at compartmentalizing but like that's not good. So, you know, like that's that's why I like I talk so much about this this quarantine and and you know how much it's forced us to become vulnerable in a way because
There's so much unknown. So it's like if we want to give ourselves a chance, then we have to do something different. So, you know, if it's opening up and talking about something that is scary. Try it, you know, because I like I'll say like all this stuff that you know, I've talked about, you know throughout that that happened throughout my career. When should I carry that thing I look like all that stuff along for 10 years. So, you know, like having that out and open not it one makes it so much easier to talk about but to it like there's there.
So much less weight on my shoulders. I feel I feel normal, you know, like talking about this stuff that I know there's so many other people that go through the same thing or in similar different ways. Like I just I don't know like I just I feel so much better like my shoulders drop and that's just something that I will always say and try to push there's a wait there's a weight to Secrets or keeping things inside or there can be and
It makes me also want to mention that there is a new documentary HBO documentary out called the weight of gold in which you're featured very heavily. Why be part of that and I think we've probably mentioned a lot of the reasons why but and maybe a better question because that's kind of a lazy question and I should know better better question is how does it feel having done that?
And maybe congruent could
describe it feels yeah. Yeah. Yeah, please please please
stay more and and just for those who don't have any contacts. The weight of gold is an HBO Sports documentary very very well shot exploring the mental health challenges that Olympic athletes often face just want to provide that since I didn't explain it. But could you could you expense say more about what it is like to do that as you've heard or as people and seeing a red I've struggled, you know throughout my whole career so, you know,
2016 where I was probably, you know more aware of just life in general and everything that was going on more than I ever have in my life. So, you know at that point I saw that there were other athletes that were going through similar things. Like I was going through Opening Ceremonies and seeing athletes, you know, almost body language. Like I feel like that's something that I've learned to read really well over over throughout my life, but I started like reading people but I also started hearing
things that people were saying, you know, seeing things that people were posting or this or that and I was like, oh like literally I said, oh shit. This is a lot bigger than I thought, you know because I always knew it was you know mental health in general is something that was very big but I almost like it I felt like it smacked me in the face 2016 Olympics and and you know losing way too many of our family members and the Olympic world over the last five years.
I want to cry every time I think about it. So, you know for me losing you mean suicide committed suicide. Yes. So for me to be able to do this documentary with the athletes that we had who were so vulnerable. I honestly I can't thank them enough for opening up and and you know, being them being their authentic self and filling I guess sharing some stories about know what we experience and what we go through but you know as we stated earlier, this is something you know, there's a massive stigma.
Around mental health and this is something that you know, it's a journey that I've started on and and I'm breaking the wall down as fast as I can and and you know, the more that people stand up and talk about their stories and their struggles. We're going to break it down piece by piece and and you know doing this documentary, I feel as an awesome first step and and you know, just kind of overall look at some of the things that go through our heads and that we experience and we're not this statue, you know, we are human being and
It was something I like I said, I can't say enough. I'm super proud of it just shows just like I'm I was a kid in the candy store working on it. This is something it's you know, it's like my baby. So, you know, I've I guess really since I opened up in 2014 about my struggles with depression and anxiety, you know, I you know, really kind of took it by the horn so to say and you know, this is my mission like I'm gonna do everything I can one to learn as much as I can.
About mental health but also, you know try to help as many people as I can break this wall down. The suicide number is continuing to climb and it frustrates the hell out of me. I mean, I I read a story last night going to bed of two brothers that are on a show over and London and honestly, I just my heart hurts because I feel some of the pain that they go through and I mean, I think the biggest thing I want people to know that there is help on the other side, you know, I've been and I've seen a lot of really
Dark Places throughout my life, but you know, I also know that I'm not alone. So when I look at that word on my on my desk like that I wrote down like I am not alone, but that's that's part of my darkness and and you know, I think just always always knowing that that that there's somebody out there that that's what we all have to realize no matter what we're going through. Somebody is there to hold your hand to give you a hug to you know, whatever it is that you need because we are not alone in life and
And honestly, we can't do anything in life by ourselves. Like it's really hard if you think about it, you know and if we can include other people that love us and want to be around most then it makes lifetime times better. That was one thing that I had to learn the hard way with compartmentalizing throughout my career is I couldn't do it by myself. It was impossible. I couldn't handle the stress the of the emotions and the feelings all that stuff that was building up inside of me while I'm trying to perform at the absolute best like it's impossible. It's unhealthy
So, you know, I think that's that's the biggest thing, you know really being able to do it and put it together. And you know, I was honestly frustrated with how long I'm somebody that wants stuff done fast. So, you know, I never realized how long the process right so I never really realized how long the process of making a piece like that takes and and to be honest. I'm extremely thankful that that it came out and we were able to launch it during
covid because it's the single, you know, that was the one thing that I was deathly afraid of when when everything started happening was the impact on everyone's mental health that this was going to take and and we seen suicide numbers increase. So, you know, I can't stress enough how important it is to you know, you have something going on inside you that's not normal say something to somebody write it down something don't hold on to it. You know, I think Life Is Life is definitely too damaged.
You know, as I said earlier, I want to slow down time as much as I can and be able to enjoy everything that that that life has to offer. Totally one way of slowing down time is sharing time with others, right and and it's and it strikes me that of course on one level. I respect both of you tremendously as just icons of competition as as champions of
Moment but what impresses me even more than that is the model of male friendship and Brotherhood Mutual support that you guys have demonstrated certainly privately but also publicly and I'm just so happy to have both of you on this call because that seems so foundational to your success as not athletes necessarily although that.
Be part of it is as humans is having that deep bond and mutual support and like you said Michael, even if you are out there and feel alone, which is very easy during covid and it's easy all the time in modern industrialized cultures because we are very much compartmentalised physically and separated from a lot of interaction and cohabitation and so on
there are
tools like talk space. There are
professionals who are available and just reaching out to someone can release so much pressure in the system and there are options. So I feel like the weight of gold as a doc coming out now is is great timing during very bad times for for millions of people so I couldn't agree
more and Grant I
realized I did not come back and ask you one of the questions that I'd asked Michael which was
Related to books or resources that you've found helpful. My audience is always interested in books certainly any resources or tools, but are there any books that come to mind for you that were either particularly helpful with respect to challenging times or books overall that you've recommended or gifted the most other people
I gave this set a lot to Michael so that was
I was one what if obviously which was that this had a lot of not giving a fuck so is yeah. Yeah, Mark Matson. Yeah. Yeah, so that one obviously, I just reread that probably a couple of months ago that that book always just takes me back one or two steps and renews my perspective on situations because you know, I'm I'm a hyper focused individual when I get done two goals and tasks and things that I want to deliver like I sometimes get the blinkers on in such an
intense way.
That I can lose
perspective on things around me. So I'm really a lot more aware and conscious of that now and I'll make sure I've got things like that. His follow-up book was great. I really enjoyed that. I actually read that and bought it for a mutual friend of ours Tim. Matt Target over quicker over for his birthday last year in December. So yeah, so I enjoy his reading. I read a lot of journals. I even read a lot of Harvard Business Review articles. There's one I like in particular and its really funny. This will sound a little bit counterintuitive.
Around mental health, but it's about mental toughness. And there's you know, they've got the sort of mini books that you can you can read all the journals that they've had around that particular subject matter and I love that because it resonates with me, you know a hundred percent. So I find I actually need to not just read things that give me renew perspective but actually things that make me feel more like me and that's one of the things that the the so-called just that I've dealt with because you know, we always talk about purpose and meaning and all this sort of stuff and he
This really interesting thing. He said to me because you know people have this High expectation of you once you've achieved certain things in life and you have a greater expectation of yourself more than anybody else and he just said to me goes just do more things that make you feel like you
man that has always stuck with me because it's like, okay, what do I value what I truly value and it's funny that upon the basis of that saying or that statement. I I really got back to my own core values and then I did things that sort of checked into those values and it's funny because I always had people tell me oh Grant just just slow down just you know, enjoy just relax don't
You know, I don't try to do everything to the top level every single
thought. I hate. I hate when people say that shit got it pisses me off so much.
I tried that and you know what, I realize that's not me like doing things mediocre is not me. I can't stand that and it was funny all the things that disconnected with my value, sir treat destabilize me and so I focus on reading things reading journals doing things that connect more with me and those
Is like mental toughness reading about Navy Seals reading about different training strategies that sort of stuff. I really love and I find that an escape for my personality. So that's quite a good thing and then I love Commerce and love business. So I read a lot of different business books and articles. So they're kind of the things that that I just enjoy. So, yeah, it's always just reconnecting with purpose for me that actually slows my mind down gives me perspective. And then yeah the books that I just referred to certain sir.
Live help me round out that view even more. So
do you have any favorite since you mentioned it? I know this this might seem off topic but it's not since this is about your lives and not just once one facet any particular favorite business books and I'll just mention for folks. Also Harvard Business Review has a book which is H be ours 10 must-reads on mental toughness and features are Martin Seligman Tony Schwartz, Warren, Bennis and others and that's a that's
Twenty four twenty five dollars, you can find that online and I'll link to that in the show notes. Are there any business books? That's that are real standouts for you.
There's what I'm reading at the moment that I'm really enjoying which is filled not sure you do the I've got to read this book. It's I've got
to read it. It's been recommended to me a hundred times.
Yeah, so I'm in the middle of that. I've got to say that's that's definitely one that Springs to mind. That's definitely definitely top of the list other ones that stand out. I mean probably that one.
Now the other ones that I enjoy reading I enjoy just general sort of leadership. So I read a lot of stuff that relates to that in business and knowing and understanding what the fundamentals are. I've probably got if I walked into my bedroom seven or eight books that I want to read that I haven't at the moment. I always enjoy reading things around Warren Buffett. I've read a lot of books at that relate to him just on his mindset and his approach towards things because the one thing that I've really found in high-performance, you don't actually have to read
always on your specific subject matter because and when it comes to business, I always find I read articles mostly like strategy articles or you know growth initiatives or you know, what was the change in Boeing when you know Airbus when Airbus said, okay, we're going to do the A380 but you know, what if we get this wrong, it's actually go to send us bankrupt. You know, what was the inflection point where business became great and I enjoyed Jim Collins like his books good to great a really interesting just to learn about you know, I find
Any sort of success story is the same. It is just a Daily Grind of mundane things that you just have to keep getting right and improve by point. One of a percent and then do it again the next day then do it again the next day then eventually, you know momentum and the flywheel as it's referred to in that book. So kind of Click into place and and then all of a sudden many years later, you've got this outstanding result that people think is an overnight success that took you 15 years to get there. So that's the way I find most things work. And so I love reading around the
Those of you know, high performance and success in any single field whether it's a Navy SEAL whether it's business, whether it's Sports, whether it's you know, in music, you know the school of Julia or whatever it might be those principles are the same and I'm always trying to identify those because I got to be honest. I love it. Like I'm passionate about it. I passion about learning about it talking about it reading about it. So yeah, they're probably always the things that I try and tap into and again it comes back to that that saying that I said before just do things that make you feel
Like you that's that's not everyone's cup of tea winning Olympic gold medals is not everybody's cup of tea because sacrifices you have to make for that but most people is probably not often worth it. But for the two guys you've got on this call will do anything to get those things and sort of have the same approach to everything else that I try and Achieve or want to achieve.
I love that expression doing more things that make you feel like you have never heard anything or never heard the message worded quite that way, but it's very succinct and
very deep if you if you spend some time on it. Thank you for sharing that Michael. Are there any other books are resources that you would like to mention just to give you another dip at the well, I'm sitting here looking at my like the little bookshelf that we have behind we have scattered in here, but I was sitting there looking at these books and I there's two of them popped into my head that one I've gone back to so for trying to slow things down. I tried to mix in more of a
Daily reading so Mark Napa has a good one the book of Awakening and then the daily stoic. I mean, I feel like some of those things, you know, yeah, you can really just like almost just take a step back right take a deep breath let it and like, you know, read a quote read, you know, a single page whatever it is, let it marinate and and you know just for me it's just something that's so easy to do but something that's so awesome to do to start your day. You know, I just feel like it it just gives you some kind of purpose of what you're doing and and
You know and when life is too fast again, it gives you that second to take that step back. Yeah daily stoic an ego is enemy. You got a whole lot of Ryan holiday on your bookshelf. It's funny. So I just got the daily stock for my coach or my old coats are Bob Bowman and I've gotten a few of the other books as I was saying earlier from you know, Seth Packy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
He's like, he's one of like my favorite human beings on this planet have a communication or conversation with Excuse me, but some of the books that he's given me really have like he I feel like he is a really good understanding about me as a person and how I work and he's a very very smart human being so I feel like some of the things that he's given me to read are again back to my point just simple ways for me to understand something that I might be too hard on.
myself with or you know, I might be too hyper focused on one thing. Right? So, you know almost giving me that bigger picture, you know trying to be that Lake instead of being that glass of water. So yeah, I think I like a lot of a lot of the books that I have that I'll rifle through time and time again, I think it's been super helpful just to yeah, I mean, I think more than anything just give me a chance like I feel you know for me like a lot of my life was focused on swimming and and that
Really? Was it like a hacky packing those being an Olympian? Your whole life is focused on one thing nothing else matters in life, but that I'm honestly really learning how to live on dry land. So to say I kind of made the joke throughout Alaska last few years. I feel like I've taken more Strokes in the swimming pool that I've taken steps on my end. So it's it's it makes it challenging when you have a freight train trying to come down the middle of a tree.
Eat the street with no tracks on it. So it's been difficult a Time slowing me down. But but I feel like some of those simple, you know kind of different approaches to looking at things for me just have benefited so much just because II can't expect to fill up. Everybody's cups. If my cup isn't filled up. Right like I have I have three boys and an amazing wife and and a household here that I'm in charge of my roles, right so it
If I'm not taking care of myself and you know filling my glass up by taking the time that I need for me, I have no shot in being able to be a good husband a good friend a good dad. So, you know, I just want I want to have a chance and and I feel like that's what I did in my career my preparation. It was the process like I missed the whole process of it all that that I learned but you know, the preparation was was you know, Sookie so it's yeah just trying to slow things down.
Down, I don't know have any that makes sense. But yeah, it's something that it does. Yeah, it's been it's been enjoyable. But as you can imagine something that's been extremely challenging at times, you know, as you hear Grant and I talked about we want to go fast and we want to get to point A to point B as fast as we can the fastest way but also the most effective way, so now can we do you know what I mean? So it's
like
And other times you want to take a jet ski at a hundred miles an hour across the lake and some days. It's hard to decide which one you wanted, right?
Oh man. Well this this has been such a fun conversation for me and I just have one more question and it's sometimes a difficult question. So if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but well, I'll give it a shot and that is actually before I get there. I have to say I've also found stoicism very very helpful and it's such a small world because I actually published the audiobook versions of both egos the enemy and the daily stoically Moon.
Violence and your voice a lot. I've heard a lot. I think MPC done some stuff with Trevor Mama's. Well, I believe I may have yeah, it's it's oil and
it's just such a such a such a small
world. So let me ask a question that sometimes doesn't work as it is is sometimes a hard question. I'll ask it of both of you in the question is this if you could put anything on a billboard this is metaphorically speaking. It could be an image.
Each a quote a question a word anything non-commercial on a billboard to get something in front of billions of people. What would it be? And if either of you want to take a stab at it, feel free to jump, you know, if you want a key.
Yeah, you want to go go my head, but you go first but
I mean II would just say it's okay to not be. Okay. Yeah, I think that's something that for me.
In my darkest scariest moments, like that's the one thing that Nicole always says to me, you know, and she'll throw around around me or ask. If she can give me a hug sometimes, you know, if I am just like if I really want to be alone like that's the one thing like she'll it she'll ask me because sometimes I just need that moment by myself shall ask to give me a hug. My wife will ask me to give me a hug. So, you know, like it's she like we've just been able to make damn I can't say it enough grow so much. So, you know, I would say again to everybody out there like it's okay to not be
be okay and you're not alone like those those two things I think can just go together just mean with everything we've talked about on this call. It's just it's in a difficult time. It's something to just simplify it. Take a step back deep breath and relax. Those are great. Those are
great Grant any thoughts. Yeah, the first thing that popped into my head and I haven't thing that's always the right and best answer was if you want to put something in a billboard I just bu bu
You two words very simple because the more you do the things that you know make you feel like yourself or brings out your personality brings out who you are makes you feel good about yourself and you don't have to be something that's false or superficial or create an image for anybody else or anything else and I think once you get back to that simplification and to Michael's point, I think you know often you feel best about yourself often you find the things that you enjoy doing more often often enough. You're living a lie.
Life that just makes you feel good about yourself and and you know connect better with the people around you so I think just be you and feel Comfort comfortable in that exhale. Yeah. Like
I honestly that's like I can't just hearing you say that through the last hour that we that you've mentioned it to me it like it's brought up so many things that that would help me just like simplify life and it just totally makes sense. You know, like there are times I got Ike I can say like II mean I play golf.
With I've had the chance to play golf with a lot of professional golfers and and you know, I recently got to play with and I got to know John ROM a little bit. So the first time playing with him, I'm like shit like I want to try to play as good as I can like I want to be on my you know, a game yada yada yada and I'm like, well, that's not me because I don't have the time in the preparation to perform how I expect to perform. So I can't expect to be somebody else. I have to be me. That's something that you know, I struggled a lot with and at times still
I'll do you know that like where I feel like sometimes I am just a swimmer and because I feel like that's what the story has been right, you know, every single headline is about swimming swimming swimming and and you know, finally now like that like that's why I really I'm so happy with everything we're doing with mental health, but you know, like that's that's one thing that I really just saw myself as and not a human being so, you know if I want to say thank you because I'd like that that quote right there is BU, you know, I think can simplify.
By a thousand things for me. I don't know how I've never heard you can say that but thanks, I appreciate you bringing that up today.
I liked you before just popped into my head. I just went with it. This is this has
been really fun to have both of you on and for everybody listening will link to everything in the show notes as usual at Tip Top log 4 / podcast. So you won't miss anything the
documentary that was mentioned is the weight of gold. That is an HBO documentary Grant people can find you on Instagram at Grant underscore underscore Hackett ha cket two underscores and then Michael people can find you on Twitter at Michael Phelps Facebook, Michael Phelps Instagram @ m underscore Phelps 0 0. Is there anything else that you gentlemen would like to mention anything else that you'd like to add?
A closing comment or anything at all?
I got it's a I just I'm so proud of Michael as a friend, you know, he knows I love him like a brother and you know, but people have seen him as a product right because the guys so successful and so amazing and it achieved things that no one else ever has the history of sport and but to hear how open and honest and transparent and forthright, he is around mental health because I know he wants to help other people to me is just an outstanding.
In characteristic and you can never underestimate the strength, but Michael always has that strength to do that sort of stuff. So yeah, man, that was it was awesome to hear today. It was it was emotional for me sitting on the other side because I've been there. I've been right there with you sitting in the closet talking
locked my phone.
And I'm sure that that will help a lot of people and I know that's exactly what you like to do.
Honestly, I'd likewise bro. I mean we've both been through our fair share of ups and downs publicly and privately and you know, as you know, my circle is super tight and and I love you like a brother and honestly this it's awesome to see the journey that you've been on and honestly just welcoming a new baby Jesus. It's so cool. So special awesome to watch. I miss you like hell
Laz as selfish as it is, I wish you lived next door. We need our
compound and I still do that.
Honestly. This is it's been great for me, you know, even though with with the relationship and and as close as I am with hockey, I've been able to learn even more about him today. And you know, I'm excited that we somebody finally put this together the two of us to be able to just chat for
Two hours. Honestly, it was a treat and and you know, we've listened to a lot of you over the years. I look forward to listening to a lot more if it's okay. I'd love to grab your email from teman and Santosh and honestly if you have any books or anything II truly add something that that as I said, I think I think I've read more books in The Last 5 Years or listen to more books in the last five years than I have in the previous 30.
You know, so I think I it's funny how life works and and how open I am or how much more open I am now and and you know, that wall is down a little bit more. So yeah anything that you know, I'm always eager to learn and and it's just been a fun process II can't thank you enough for having us on today. This is this is a true treat. Yeah total blast for me a an experiment certainly especially scattered across the World As We Are
And it worked out. I'm so happy that we were able to come together and thanks for the kind words. Also, I you know the book the book that I would recommend more than any others. Not one of mine. It's actually a book called awareness by Anthony De Mello. It's a short book DEA me llo Anthony De Mello, and I will definitely I'll share my email and cell with both of you guys and you can feel free to reach out anytime certainly and hopefully we'll meet in person sometime.
Time and it has been such a treat. So thank you both very much and I wish you both a wonderful
weekend you do so much for having us.
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