Welcome to the huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford school of medicine. Today, my guest is Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk is one of the most celebrated and accomplished professional skateboarders of all time. For more than 40 years, he has been at the Forefront of the sport and I don't mean just doing a sport for more than 40 years. A truly mean he has been at the Forefront.
The Forefront of skateboarding developing new Maneuvers AKA tricks that include incredible Feats, like the 909 hundred degree spin in the air as well as numerous other Maneuvers that have really pushed the entire sport forward. He's also completely popularize the sport through his video game and through his ambassador to ship for skateboarding. In fact, few if any names are synonymous with skateboarding in the general public as Tony Hawk and he is oh so deserve it of that title because
For more than 40 years, he has shown up as the consummate professional. He is kind, he is respectful, and he is completely committed to his craft. And that shows up in every aspect of his life, he still to this day skateboards daily and as you'll soon, learn he recently suffered a major injury, a complete break of his femur that is the bone in his upper leg and this is what many people would consider a career-ending injury. Not only did Tony come back from that injury but he went back to the very
A trick on which he broke his femur and recently completed, that trick, that is a 540 or so-called mctwist. I mention this. Because at every level of his life, Tony has demonstrated himself to be somebody with Incredible Drive, incredible vision and incredible persistence. And today, we talked about that drive vision and persistence, and we talked about what it takes to set a goal. And to continually evolve one's goal and to continually progress as a basically young preteen,
As a teenager, as a young adult, as an adult. And well, let's face it as a 55 year old man, he is now heading a little bit, past middle age, although we do hope that he lives forever, Tony Hawk AKA The Birdman really does seem to be superhuman. But as you learn today, he is, oh, so human in the way that he shares his own experience and shares with you the ways in which we can each and all look at what we do and think about what we want to achieve and put our minds and our bodies to those goals.
And Achieve them. I confess that the today's discussion with Tony Hawk was a particularly thrilling one for me to have. I grew up in the sport of skateboarding so I had met Tony previously although he doesn't remember it, that was many years ago. In fact I met his parents. You'll learn more about that story during today's episode but I was aware of course of Tony's accomplishments. I was also aware of his philanthropy so he has a skate park Foundation. I also listen to his podcast with another professional skateboarder Jason, Ellis called Hawk first.
Wolf, be provided a link to that podcast in the show notes captions as well. But never before I have I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to the Tony Hawk and learn from him. So I was absolutely delighted to have this conversation and it far exceeded my already lofty expectations before we begin. I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, a part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to Consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public in keeping with that theme. I'd like to thank
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this conversation, because
I've tracked your career for a very long time. Grew up in the skateboard thing. I know had your poster on my wall. Oh, thank you. Your name is synonymous with skateboarding. As, you know, I think a question that probably get asked from time to time, but let's just clarify the data from the outset. Tony Hawk, is your real name, right?
Yes, Anthony Frank Hawk, but I never went by Anthony. I mean, my parents call me Tony's and so could remember, so
it's a fitting name given the
Art, and what you do. And we will get into this a little bit later when we talk about family and parenting and parents. But I'll allude to the story. Now that when I was 14 years old at your parents, took me in. Yeah, I slept in your bed in your home while not with you in it, but surrounded by your near infinite number of trophies and I and and it
must have been right after I moved out. So this would be, I was
14 years old, maybe I'll just tell the story now. Very briefly. I was
Years old. I was at a contest at Linda Vista Boys Club. Everyone left me and another kid named Billy Waldman, we're still there. Your dad said, where are you going? It was clear that I didn't know where I was going. My life was. So I was a wayward youth at that time. And so they took me in for a night. Maybe even two nights, your mom, Nancy, and your dad. Frank were so gracious brought me in into your home. Took me to dinner.
I
don't recall. Does that mean that tracks that would do if my dad and my mom together would be doing that?
Yes, incredible people. And we'll get back to that story later because you, and I actually met the next day in Fallbrook at your ramp, but Farmers ahead of an 88 89. That's right. I'm going to say I'm going to say 89. Okay. And it must have been one of the either NSA or Castle contests. Yeah, that your dad was very active in. Well we'll get back to that but I have so many questions that relate to escape.
Into you and really as a neuroscientist, to the whole concept of a life of continual progression because but they're not people listening to this and watching this are skateboarders or not. And I imagine that most of them are not. It's absolutely clear that you've been in this game a very long time and that you've somehow managed to continue to progress over and over to come back from very severe injuries and somehow keep getting better and
Better. So, the first question I have is about the younger version of you. Mmm.
Did you have any sort of self-concept? Like, you know, I want to be a pro athlete, or I want to be a skateboarder or I won't have a video game named after me right after I had a right. Exactly. You know, but if you can think back to maybe even pre skateboarding. Do you remember what your self concept was? You know, this notion of like myself and I'm either similar or different to other kids? Yes, I'm way when I was young. I was put
Lot of advanced classes and not that that felt like a badge of honor. It felt more like I was just classified as a nerd, but then I thought, okay, well, that's my strength, so I'll lean into that and I thought that maybe I would be a teacher because I thought, why I get all these Concepts. And I think I could relate them to kids or to my peers because I helped a lot of my classmates through someone some classes. So that's all I really had. I didn't know, and then, when I would play,
Sports. I would I would be okay. You know, I wasn't I wasn't terrible, but I wasn't the VIP or the MVP. And so I was just kind of playing basketball playing baseball. And then when I found skateboarding, I mean, it was, it was pretty obvious. That that was what I wanted to do. It was once once I got on a skateboard and realized that I could maneuver it and do things that were unique.
And not, they're moving the needle or anyone cared but there were unique in the sense of like I didn't, I've never seen one do this and this feels awesome and so I just want to do this. And so I didn't think that this is my career. I was 10. So I just thought this, this is my finest. This is my hobby, this is my thing and I don't want to play these other sports anymore.
Did you stop playing all the others?
Yes, I quit. I quit. Little egg in the middle of the season when my
Had been appointed president of that chapter of little league because he was the coach, he was always very involved in all these kids. Well, I have three siblings, so he was always very supportive whatever they were doing.
And then when I was playing
baseball, he became a coach because he had time and he was doing that. He was, he was, you know, almost retired, and then he was such a prominent figure in the Little League. They said, oh, you're president now and so then someone else was coach and then I was skating and
I was over it.
Did you immediately start skateboarding in the parks on transition as we say, or were you pushing around in the driveway that most
kids? It was I was transportation and skating was kind of a fad. So I started in 78 roughly, maybe 77 even and it was kind of a fad, so kids just had skateboards and they would, they would all cruise around, you know, like it was the 70s, so everyone had a bike, right? And you knew wherever all the kids work, is the bikes, were in the front lawn
Then at some point that kind of turned into skating. So everyone had skateboard they're all like shitty, you know, JCPenney or big-box store skateboards. No one had really good one not in my area but then at some point we were just looking at these magazines and people skating and everyone's getting in pools because that was the doctrine of Z-Boys there and it was like these guys are flying. I wanted like where do we do that? And then
Hey park opened up in San Diego is Del Mar Skipper skating rink. Okay? But what part was the first one in our area? Actually I take that back Spring Valley was the first skate park. I tried to go there and I was nine and you had to be 10.
And I remember like sitting in the parking lot looking over the fence and my dad didn't realize what they ate because my dad would have easily lied for me. But he didn't realize there was an age limit. Is how old is he 9? Oh sorry, can't come. And then they closed long after. So, when I never got skid Spring Valley because I think of you as synonymous with Delmar skate Ranch. Sure. Well, that was, that came later because Oasis skate park was opened that. So this is when I first was like 78.
A friend of mine was going, he said I'm going to go to the skate park, so I had to go get you know, this is such a hassle like I had to go get the authorization form had to get it notarized by the bank, from my parents, like to go there and then I went and it was that was my Epiphany. When I first saw people flying around in person. I was like this is what I'm doing for as long as I could possibly do it because it looked it looked like magic. It really did look like there were flying a magic carpet.
It's and and it spoke to me in the sense of being a daredevil but also doing it individually not relying on my team not getting getting hassled by a coach. It was just like, oh, I could be part of the scene, but do it my own way. And then I skated Oasis as much as I could as my whenever he your rides there. And then my parents moved to North County San Diego. When I was in high school,
Um, mostly because they were just chasing kind of real estate deals. And and so, I got lucky that do my skate. Ranch was right there. Every other part closed, but Del Mar CA Ranch remain open. So I mean, there was a bit of luck to all that and it was based on geography.
Your dad's involvement is interesting because I got into skateboarding because, you know, my dad wasn't around that much at that time. A lot of kids get
in skateboarding because it doesn't require parent involvement. Was it unusual to have parental involvement at that stage? Yeah, I mean I remember Frank. And, by the way, I remember Frank and Nancy your parents with was with such fondness not just because they took me in, but I remember thinking like there, they were at times the only point of stability in a landscape of like 200 people. Whereas you know, there could be a potential chaos of anytime and your dad had this way of moving about. Like he wasn't afraid. I recall that he wasn't afraid to say what he thought. Like, hey don't do that like
Some regulation. Yes. Contest and at the same time, it's Jimmy also understood that this was a sport unlike other sports like you're not going to regulate kids like me at the time or you're not going to try and control people. So what was it like to have your dad involved? And the reason I ask is that you're a parent, will talk more about parenting but also it seems that he went from saying okay you know little league other sports which is more typical to okay this kind of unusual sport skateboarding.
But your mirror interest in, it was enough to get him excited or motivate enough to take you around to these places. That's pretty special. I mean, that's pretty was, I mean and in that respect, it was great to have his support and to rely on him for that. The fact that he was always around and he was in charge of a lot of the events that well, that sucked because because they just marked me as one being favorited and
Old. And, and most of my friends, their parents didn't want them skating. So even though they were stoked, that my dad had was doing this kind of thing. And giving that kind of support, they still were like your Dad's here. Like this is our thing, this is our seen. This is our get away from our parents. I didn't really have a choice in the matter. I did, I did at some point.
Tell him my, my concerns and my frustrations with it, but he didn't really want to hear it. You know, he was, he was very much steadfast like, well, I'm been coming this far like you can we can keep our distance at these events but people are relying on me to organize them. And so I just had to suck it up for a while. Did you push you harder like, you know, if you could prove yourself with a skateboard in the you didn't have to worry about any claims of favoritism because ultimately you can't fake.
You can't fake skate, right? Right, I mean there's no deep fake version of skateboarding. You know, you either can do it or you can't do it and it's shown in real time. So, and I suppose back then I recall you were you're quite a bit skinny or skinny or Ayah. I had I had all kinds of things going against me but the time, yeah, I mean, I don't think people realize this unless they met you in person, but nowadays there are few taller skateboarders out there because the Sports grown so much.
But you're pretty tall you like 663 but okay I was not when I was drunk when I was that age. I was very small and kind of concerning Lee small Because by the time I got to be 16, I was still I look like I was 13. I used to get pulled over
I literally, like, I had a car that I bought with my earnings had a, Honda Civic 1977 CBC and I would get pulled over and then the cops would be like, how old are you 16? Like we looked like you were 13 back there and then I shot up around age
17. Okay, so that's interesting and we can get back to this when we talk about your almost remarkable levels of ability to recover from physical injuries because well, I'll just share
A little bit of biological Theory here, which is that, you know, there a lot of people study longevity and perhaps the fastest rate of Aging that we ever undergo is puberty, right? If you think about again before, puberty kid, after you, because last different human being psychologically, often physically as well. Some people have a longer Arc of puberty than others and that does seem to correlate with a longer life and so it's kind of interesting, you know, some kids hit puberty and they go through all the markers of puberty and like one summer. The kids. It's very, very long and it sounds like
We don't have to talk about when you hit puberty and the other markers but it sounds like your growth spurt occurred late. Oh yeah. That's a terrific marker of a long life by the way because what it reflects is the onset of a big burst of growth hormone out of the pituitary and brain. And if you continue to grow for a long period of time that indicates, you know, it gives you a little bit of the, the slope of the line that makes sense. Oh yeah. So this this may have important unfortunate consequences. So at 17 you shot up, am I
I correct in Remembering. Maybe you said it may be. Somebody else did that. You were forgive me. But so skinny when you were a kid that you actually wore elbow pads, knee pads. Yeah, that's a truce. That's a true story, for sure. And and I took inspiration from others that that I identified with namely Steve Caballero because he was already an established Pro when I started to come up in the ranks or even get noticed at all and he was wearing L will pass on his knees in this full-page picture of him and win.
You're doing a back sit there and I was like that want to do that and he's small, and I feel like, that's my goal and see what he has to say. Like, if he can do it, I can do. It was just more like, oh this, I identify with that. And, and that gives me hope. And as I recall,
Stevie also has a pretty severe scoliosis. Right? At one point he was asked what he had at one point. He was turned turned pretty pretty tight to the to the right or left. I don't recall, which I mean, still incredible. Skateboarder loves TV. He's a NorCal guy. So,
I grew up with whatever he had is from birth, but, um, but it was more that his size. And I didn't even know, he was many, not many, but he's like four years older than me. So I just was like, oh, there's small guys doing that. I can do it maybe, but when I got tall, when I went through puberty, suddenly I had all these tricks and then suddenly I had the strength and the the height that gave me confidence.
And so all of a sudden it was like oh I can go way higher now and I'm comfortable with these tricks. These intricate board Maneuvers and stuff. So that was a huge advantage to me. The the smaller Stuff felt different after that, which was harder. But being able to blast eight feet in the air, as opposed to four feet in the air was a huge Advantage. Yeah. Isn't that wild when the nervous system knows how to do something and then your body changes and you can do
Same thing, but with so much more Force, even the bowls
looks smaller. When I would stand on top of his like wait this isn't that big?
It's wild. Well, the reason I ask about this, I think, you know, people listening generally seem to assume that, you know, if you become a Stanford Professor becoming professional skateboarder or you professional soccer player that you were just faded to become that, right? And it's clear that it's the Confluence of so many different factors, but one of the consistent factors for
Sure is a sense of just really love doing it, right? I mean, I can't imagine getting, you know, proficient or excellent anything without loving doing it, right? And so still at this time, when you were, let's say 14 15. Did you have any concept of you know, whenever pro model I'm going to none of that. Well, there was, there was none of that to be had. So we didn't have these great aspirations because no one had really done that before. There were
You could have some success. Yes you could have maybe a signature model but even the top sales of skateboarding then wasn't a career. The prize money was $150 for first place Hunter 4, S 54 third.
Couple tanks of gas, some
food. Yeah, let's go. Let's put it this way. I turned Pro and I was 14, by the time I was fifteen and a half, and I had a learner's permit and I could drive a scooter. You know, I had six hundred dollars in my bank account, and I use that to buy a Honda Express moped for a year and a half. That was my earnings was $600.
So clearly money, wasn't the dopamine hit was the it.
Is the actual
skateboard. Sure. And that's what I mean though. That wasn't there was no goal of that because it just didn't exist. So I didn't care. Like, I kidding, I have my own vehicle at age 15. Like I was living large, I can get to the skate park on my own that was amazing
to be 14 and be a professional at anything. Must be a trip so to speak. But what I'm wondering about because I came up when you're early cohort with,
All Peralta. So for those that don't know. So called Bones Brigade, right? Guess who was with total? What? Like six seven, guys, ever someone. There were a little more peripheral than others. They're about 67. A core guys, in the various videos, I mean, you guys were famous, right? You posters on kids walls, who skateboarded? There was a second or maybe it was a third surge of popularity in skateboarding because it would sort of Surgeon General popularity than disappear and come back as it has over decades.
It keeps coming and going to some extent. Did you have a conscious awareness of just how, you know, how much attention was being placed on photos of you videos of you? And I'm just wondering about the younger version of you, whether or not, you know, you realize what was happening. And the reason I ask is because you've always seemed to me somebody who through interviews, through videos through our interactions. And for those of known, you much longer than I have, just very grounded, like not caught up in it.
You know we've never seen headlines about you, kind of just you know blowing all your money or you know wrecking cars and you know just drawing your life. I mean I'm sure you've made mistakes like any of us but but you seem to avoid it. A lot of the pitfalls of quote-unquote famous people and celebrities and yet you were a famous person from a very young age.
Yeah. I well I think it was that I did never. I never, that was never a goal and then when I had a sense of it I was very
Uncomfortable. I mean, I was happy. I was happy to be successful. I was happy that people recognize me, that, that was amazing. Just because I was good at skateboarding. I never imagined something like that. And but I was always very
I mean, some people thought that I was sort of almost like pompous or arrogant because I wasn't interacting because I was just, I was walled off. I was like, I don't know what to do. Gosh, thanks. This is the last words I would ever use to describe you. I think it was just more that that people would see me, like, I go to a ramp. I didn't know anybody and I would just start skating and I do all my stuff and they're like, oh he doesn't even talk to anyone.
And I was like, I don't know, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to act. Oh, so you're 14 years old, right? He broke me out of that because I remember one time there was a kid that was just staring at me like hold my skateboard. He had my signature model and he said, go say hi to that guy. What are you sure? Like he wants he wants to interact with you you know just go High 5 mm or anything and I learned to sort of break out of my comfort zone by doing that enough. But my first go-around I mean, that was, that was sort of my first
A wave of Fame. I'd say the Bones Brigade years, and we were so young that we thought this is forever. And so we were definitely careless with our money with our actions. And, and at some point, my dad saw that, he didn't think it was going to be long term because no one had a long-term career, right? So he, he encouraged me to invest to get
Pretty like to buy a house. That was the, that was my Saving Grace because I definitely was spending
cars and things like
that. Yeah, car, like, kind of a little bit beyond, my means, I wasn't really considered you say. All my money was, was 1099 income. So, wasn't, we weren't paying taxes on anything? And at the end of the year, I'll be like, oh, you owe this much like, wait, what you talkin about? So, for instance, hey, you want to go to Hawaii? Yeah. Okay. Invite everyone.
We're all going to Hawaii. I got. Well, let's rent a place. Okay, you know and it was on me because I had the means
you mentioned Stacey we should probably clarify for people Tony's referring to the great, Stacy Peralta.
Yeah, he was, he was the one who put me on the Bones Brigade when I was still considered, sort of a circus act like a, you know, my skating was not really established. The stuff that I was doing, was largely made fun of because people thought,
That what I was doing was just more like a freak Show.
Can you explain more? It's oh my. And let me just tell you that my recollection. First recollection of you that I still have that image in my mind would is the finger flip are right. You know. So for folks that aren't familiar skateboarding, you know people ride around on transition or in the street handrail stairs, you know, people probably familiar with all those things but it's Gabriel's will write up toward the top of the pool or the ramp and they'll do something on the so-called lip or the coping, that's the right at the edge of it, or they'll go above it, like it in the
The air, but I recall seeing you do the finger flip are. I'd never seen anyone flip aboard in the air. I'd seen people do varial. So, right move it. It's going to be complicated for people just listening, but just to flip it upside down and then catch it in and finger flip are. Yeah, that was. I remember that. Was it jaw drop? Right. It was like, so if that was considered circus era or circus-like then I don't know, I don't know what was being compared to because at the time, we probably watched that it was in slow motion.
I recall and we probably watched it three thousand times, you know that summer there's a big group of us at all start skateboarding that summer. I
would say kind of just before that in that window is when people were, were more giving me flak for what I was doing because I was mostly doing board variation stuff. But I still didn't have the height, the height in terms of the height in terms of in terms of you getting in the air. Yeah, so I was doing all this stuff kind of right at coping level.
And so people weren't taking it into consideration or giving a much Merit, because it was just like, oh, he's doing a little bored twist, or Barn turn. And then when I started to get some height around the time you saw and started doing those tricks, like visibly way up high, that's when the the shift happened in terms of more acceptance. But I was still labeled as a as like, a trick skater, robot skater. And then you had Christian Hosoi. Who was all?
Are is higher than anyone, anytime he did a trick. It was going to be so flashy and so amazing and Rockstar personnel and Rockstar personality. And so in that era you, I mean, it was very divided. It was like, no one likes us both, you know what I mean? It was just so strange to be of that age and doing something that had never really been established. And then something, I'm pitted.
Against another skater. And we're just trying to make our way through teen years and and skateboarding. And and it got, it was, it was hard. I mean, it was like, I got I got bullied, you know, yes, I was successful. Yes, I was doing but I would get, I would get Thrasher. Magazine would talk shit about mem Foreman's when I would win. Yeah, I remember that because I was from Northern California and Thrasher magazine was Skateboard Magazine for Northern California, actually wrote for them for a while. When I was a postdoc,
Make some extra money under a different name, folks, but you can try and find those articles. They're out there. And then in Southern California, was skateboarder mag Transworld, mostly Transworld skateboarding?
Yeah, it was, my was a Transworld, Transworld, skateboarding and Thrasher magazine were
there? Where that sort of the rivals, right? Yeah, so, yeah, I recall some of those things that were said it just is amazing to me, but it brings about a really important lesson which is, you know, that kid that gets made fun of if they're determined.
And they love what they're doing. That's going to be the kid that blows everyone away later. And I know this for sure, because I'll never forget their, you remember the back to the city contest that were held in San Francisco? So I went to those, they were in the drain fountains in front of City Hall. I remember getting there one day and there was this guy with kind of like a fro like hair pushing around he was doing what are called daffy's. He had two skateboards, he was kind of like weaving around and I remember thinking, you know, San Francisco's got its issues now. But back then it was rough also for different reasons. I remember thinking like this guy is going to get beat up. I hung out with
Market Arrow crew. Like, this guy's going to get beat down. Yeah, that guy was Mark Gonzales. Oh,
yeah. So one of the greatest, perhaps the greatest Street skateboarder, if you
can't really Define these things greatest and whatnot in skateboarding. But you know, I remember thinking this guy is just he's a kook. And then I realized who it was and then I realized he was just like any other kid there at some level. And then a lot of the kids that you've got teased early on, they stuck with it. Five years later, I'm seeing them in the magazines and I think about this with podcasting to
There's been some podcasters, they've reached out early on and had questions and I look at their stuff and you know, one's initial impression can be like, what are they like, what are they doing here? And then you just see them two years later, three years later and they're doing amazingly well, you're like this guy or gal is here for good, they're gonna, they're probably gonna be top of the game in a few years so you never count anybody out when you would go to sleep at night in that era where you like laying on the pillow going. Oh my God, people hate me. Their stuff in the magazines. I got to push harder. This is hard. Do you talk to your dad about it? I mean, again, it's
Lot to Bear even as an adult. I can only imagine what it's like to bear as a 15 year old
kid. I didn't really have a support group, you know, or any resource to voice those concerns. I just knew, I wanted to keep getting better. That was it. And so if anything, if I was worried about those voices for, I was worried about the whatever, take people had on me. I knew I was going to go back to the skate park and learn more.
Or tricks, and at some point.
I had so much of that as a foundation that it was sort of undeniable that like, well, he can do all this stuff and he doesn't doesn't just do it at his home park. And I think that's probably when the tide turned from me. Is when I started to do well at other events, namely, Upland pipeline, which was for the most part, the most frightening pool that we could ride. The thing was
big, but I also recall like the hips as they're
Like the transitions the way they match up where you super tight
lot of her giant coping super rough. Like if you fell and Upland, you're getting shoot up. It's pulling your knee, pads down.
But I didn't know that because from the photos I wouldn't know that
it was it was treacherous. It really was like it was and and I wanted to do well at the event and I would drive up there every weekend. My friend Greg Smith was a freestyler but he lived near Upland and so I would go dry Friday after school. Straight to
Upland skate at night, skate Saturday, all day, skate, Sunday, and early and then drive home because I haven't seen Diego and I just made it my mission to figure that thing out because that was The Proving Ground for me. Emma is so if I could skate that I could go skating, as many of, you know, I've been taking a G1 daily since 2012 so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. A G1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink. That's designed to me all of your foundation on
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I answer a G1 if you'd like to try a G1. Go to drink, AG one.com huberman to claim a special offer from now until August 12. 20, 23 kg one is giving away 10. Free travel packs, plus a year supply of vitamin D3 K to again, if you go to drink, AG one.com huberman, you can claim the special offer of ten free travel packs, plus a year supply of vitamin D3 k 2. So it's clear you had enormous Drive. Let's talk a little bit about the process of
Tricks, and the anxiety associated with it. Did you did you and do you have a sort of systematic process, was it? You know, I'm gonna learn the basics first. Like, did you say that? Do you say I'm okay I'm going to learn how to do stuff, you know, at coping level, then I'm gonna do a little are then going to go bigger. I'ma do this, or did you just sort of try what you wanted to try and obviously weren't haphazard about it? Like how it seems? You're pretty systematic about exploring what's possible? And then
Being forward a little by little, but maybe you could talk a little bit about how you have conceptualized. Okay. Tomorrow, I want to try this,
it comes in different forms but for the most part I think about how I could combine existing tricks and would this trick work going into this trick and could your body position shifts, or would it all work in unison? And when I approach a new trick, I'm saying, I'm saying more in the last
Twenty years. My thought process is I have all the pieces to this. I've done every bit of it, I've done that. I've done the first part of the trick in another form. I've done the second part of the grinding of it or whatever, usually in some other basic way and then the landing is, well, the landing is from whatever that is and if you can throw all those things together and make the timing work, it's going to work and I never I
I never went at something with some haphazard approach or throwing caution to the wind, like, hope this see what happens. It's always very much like, I know I have all these things and so I just have to put them together and I mean, now things are so technical that my same approach that I'm doing hundreds of times, one of them just works. And it's not because I didn't, it's not because I committed to that one. It's because of some tiny fractional adjustment that
I didn't even know happen and it just worked and I mean that kind of is the curse of what tricks are now because there are plenty of moves that I've done over the last 10 years, even that I only did once because it was too fucking hard to get to. And I didn't learn from that one make. And that, that is, that's hard to accept. Because in the past, I was learning tricks to have them in my Arsenal, that I could just throw him down at a competition or a demo. I've got them in my pocket.
These days like that trick, for instance, I did a, I did a 360 shuvit 50 to
Fakie or was it? Let's break that down for real 360 shuvit. So who's going to take this on? I'll let you take this on. I can try from my knowledge and perspective, but why will you
just shove it is? Pushing the board with your feet and letting it spin a full 360 rotation, under your feet, in the landing back on it. It's a trick that people do on using on flat ground. I've learned, I
I've learned to do it up on the vert walls like I can do 360 shove, it's kind of in the air.
But I'm doing that I'm doing a 360 shuvit and then I'm landing on my truck,
right? But the axle of Between the Wheels get
one axle in a what we call 50 position which is basically a wheelie on the truck. So everything is so precise. I got to do 360 shuvit exactly a certain spot on the wall. I've got to catch it so that my truck lands when my foot hits it I can't push it into the truck because that that screws up my balance so it has to land on the truck. I have to land with my weight perfectly.
The setback enough that I can come in backwards because I'm doing this trick, and, and I'm going to come in fakie, right? 360 shuvit 502, coming in forward is as a whole different Beast, that that I could probably do that just in a few tries. But the idea that I have to land on this thing balance on it like a teeter. Totter. And then reverse my energy and come in fakie.
Backward. It's so hard. It's so hard to get into the right position. So like anytime I try it there's like a 1 in 10 chance I'm even going to get into the position I need and that's the one I have to commit to. So every time I do it it's so intense and it takes so much so much commitment and so much mind. I don't even know how to explain it like the
That you have shut everything else out. Except this one moment and this one, fractional piece that you have to make work. And it, I've done it once and I'd like I would love to do it again, but I know what it's going to. It's going to take the same amount effort. I didn't learn from that one that I made some trick. That makes it happen every time. It's also Technical and there's so many things that can go wrong. That all is accepted. Okay, I did it once.
In thinking about the 360 shuvit 50 fakie, was that something that you thought of the night, before you decide that day? Do you ever use visualization of you ever? Had learning come to you in a dream or find that you try tried something went to sleep that night. Next day, made it anything like
that. It, yes. Sometimes I'll wake up tomorrow night and I'll write down something because it was like, oh there's trick. Oh I think I could do that. Yeah. Okay. Let me write it down. So you dream about skateboarding from time to time. Yeah, well yeah. That has shifted.
A bit after I got hurt. But yeah, I used to dream that I can't skate. Like I'm trying and that it feels like the ramps made a carpet. I can't get the speed, I can't get the timing. And then, as I went through, this traumatic injury, my dream shifted to, wow, I can skate. I can do all my tricks again. Oh interesting.
Yeah, a little piece of science around the can't can't skate peace or when people feel like they're bolted down in a dream or they can't run away. Yeah, there's this one phase of sleep called rapid eye movement sleep where the brain is very
Active the dreams associated with it tend to be very Vivid and at the same time, we are completely paralyzed. And the idea is that no one really knows why, but that it's the case that were paralyzed to prevent us from acting out our dreams. It's also an interesting neurochemical phenomenon because during these rapid eye movement dreams, they tend to be very intense but the body can't release adrenaline. So it's almost like its own form of trauma therapy. It's like you're experiencing this intense thing in your mind, but your body can't react. And so oftentimes people
Have argued that. That's why you feel like you want to move and you can't because you actually can't. Yeah. Some people have woken up while still a bit paralyzed in rem. Have you ever had that happen? We wake up and,
but actually, a couple of my kids have struggle with that a couple
times. Yeah, REM interference is called, it's not dangerous, and usually people can jolt themselves out, but it's kind of terrifying, so that's interesting. So we'll get to a discussion about the recent injury and thankfully recovery from the injury, not miraculous, because that makes it seem as if it's surprising, frankly, I'm not
You've recovered but it is spectacular the way you have. But you're saying that in your dreams before the injury you would think about skateboarding but you felt like there was a kind of can't do it when I was doing it in my dream. There was always some roadblock that I just cut. Like why can't I get any speed? Why can't I like a nice nap or do this trick. It's more in the moments where Twilight moments where I'm kind of a wake and I'm thinking about tricks that
An else Falls away and I can actually focus on what kind of new moves to come up with an example of that was recently.
I went to the X Games in Japan a few weeks ago and I was thinking I was going to go more to show my support and because they had avert event, there's not a lot of vert events anymore. So if there's a vert event it's kind of like if you build it, I will come because I want to show my support. That's that's kind of where my heart is and they had a best trick event and I thought man maybe I could get in the best trick. Is there anything new though? You know, and I'm still recovering from my leg and then at some point I was falling.
Sleep. And I thought, oh, I could do that trick and come in 180. I know I could do that with with my current state and not getting that much speed. So, to explain what I was doing is half cab body, very old, backside blunt.
Okay, let we can walk through this, half cap cap cap is come up backwards, coming 360 right? So half an hour ago, one
night as I approached the top of the ramp, I body varial. That means I jump around and then I jump around on my board and then I
Make sure that it lands with my two trucks out and my tail on the coping which is very precarious. And I've done that and come in fakie. That's the blunt piece, that's the blunt. So I've done that where I worry, and then you have to, you have to use your feet to lift up board, come in fakie, right? I've done that. I've done that twice. And I thought well what if there's something I could do like that? And then I realized that if I just keep coming around and I come in backside direction that keeps my body.
Inning and that might actually be easier.
It wasn't but I figured it out. I think I saw a clip of this on it. I did it. Yeah, I did it. I did X Games. And I was like, it was my last run. I was, it was, I mean, it didn't move the needle, I got seven place but for me, it was a huge moment, it
felt amazing. I
bet. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, and why was I mean, it was like, weeks of preparation and trying to figure this thing out. I made him twice before the event on my own alone on my round butt.
That's just an example of, you know, always I was literally falling asleep and then all of a sudden it was like, I've gotta go back to blunt.
I love it that liminal State between wakefulness and sleep is such a beautiful state that if one is open to ideas showing up there. Yeah. They almost always do.
I tried. Start trying the next morning,
do you ever find that when you're taking walks or in the shower or not thinking about
skateboarding? Yeah. That's usually in the in the start of
Mundane moments that, that I get inspiration. Yeah.
Do you have practices for Pure relaxation, aside from socialization?
And I've never, I think that's something I've been lacking. I never was good at warming up. Stretching post warm up or, or relaxing, you know, meditation nothing. I just I I go skate and it's on.
And as I've gotten older, I realized that's not the best technique but it's worked so far.
It has worked. So for you, it's Go. Hopefully a little bit of warm up if you have more of a sort of OCD warm-up, run that I use to gauge how I'm feeling, but I kind of have to get through that. Like a surgeon, when a surgeon's about to do a surgery, they don't warm up. They just check off the various boxes of, you know, this is here. That's their make sure that they're comfortable in there.
Armament and then they do they do the life-saving
work. Yeah, yeah. My I'd say my warm up around is kind of basic tricks but they give me a sense of how how stiff or how what I need to adjust for it, for the rest of the day. So I guess it's not so OCD, but it, but I definitely feel like I got to go through that routine.
What feels the best? Like, I know that making a new trick feels incredible. Especially if you've been at it a long time, dialing it in so that you
can do it again and again is its own form of reward. Yeah. But what is the maybe list of two or three things that just feels so good.
Well that for sure learning new tricks not even that it's something that I created but just doing something that I've never done before. When I first learned variables backside burials, no one had done backside barrels before. They don't lie down in front side, and a variable is where you you reach down, grab your board, jump in the air.
And turn it 180 under your feet. It's like a shovel but you're guiding with your hand. I learned that halfway up the pool, the main pool, you know, at oasis with no one around and the feeling I got, when I wrote a way was something that I had never experienced and then it is, it is literally the buzz that I've been chasing ever since because it was like, I created something
variables below coping was that was the,
but I was, it really was. And if you saw a video of a baby like that thing, like,
Can I say it was the first time that I thought, I thought of it, I I went through all the Motions of it. I did the work and I figured it out and, you know, no one, no one cared but at some point I was able to do it. Six feet in the air and do a full 360 variable and so that was building block. But, but that feeling was like, no other. I'd say that. And then just even to
Tripp. Everything else away? Like the most basic tricks, like a backside Ollie is, is an and no-handed aerial that used to be what it was called back side. No-handed Ariel, it feels so good. Because even to this day, people people say, how do you support stay on your feet and I can't even tell you how the board says on my feet. I just know, I know how to maneuver it and I know how to keep the pressure on and the friction going and back side. Always is like
I think it's like a Marvel of physics and a clean back to LA to me is feels good as anything.
That's a beautiful thing to behold. I confess I've never done a legitimate backside. All him vert on a mini-ramp sure but not on Verso. I can't relate to the feeling but I love love, love the fact that you brought us back to that early variable. Oh coping feeling. And that that marks the essence of what? Feels so good when you do something.
Else, right? It's sort of like a it's a as a neuroscientist I see.
Is that chemical stamp. It's like a chemical fingerprint of progress,
right. And I'm also delighted to hear that it still feels that good to do these things because I don't think anyone can have the kind of Life long progression that you've had and it's still going without not just love of the thing. But love of the feeling that it brings when no one's around because you said skating around by yourself. So how often are you on your ramp with
You know, no one's filming for Instagram. No. Nothing for a video. Nothing for a video game. None of that. Maybe there's, you know, maybe other guys are around. Gals around. We'll talk about gals, too, because one of the big shifts in skateboarding since I started is that there's some amazing female skateboarders. Now, there's a young lady in fact that's been skateboarding at your ramp. Forgive me, I can't remember her name. Is it? Reese
Reese, Reese, an awesome. She wouldn't use her
goodness gracious. I
know. She is so yeah, good so good, so
good.
So we'll get back to that. But I think that, you know, people
starting any kind of
sport or academic career or business or anything. I think people assume that you go from 0 to 100 somehow. And that there are these people that are just selected by genetics, or by luck or by some combination of things to just like, get it and be better than everybody else. But it's clear that you spent a lot of time alone driving someplace to skate the next day or alone at the ramp. Yeah. Or so do you have a
Flag down that kind of drive and you know what what what that's all about or is it just so intrinsic to who you are and a and I don't think about it. I just know, I have to do it. It's like I mean I we can get into it with my injury but but but to go back to what you're saying is you saying that people think that you were chosen for this or genetics whatever you saw that same talk after I get you saw me skate. Yeah when I first started skating there was no way you
You'd think that I was natural or that I had any future in it. I was all gangly. I was delivering players. I was eating shit left and right, like it just it wasn't. I wasn't good. I wasn't I wasn't a natural. I've seen people that are Naturals and I've seen that how they don't have that drive. They don't have the discipline and it's not wasted, but they just don't, they don't utilize, they don't take advantage of what they have naturally.
And for whatever reason, I don't fault anyone for it, but I've seen both sides of it. And I've also seen other skaters who are just driven and who are not really good, kind of sloppy and become the best Andrew Reynolds. Oh yeah. When we put him on our team, he was just like me. Super gangly is boards bouncing around me, but he's trying every single trick, and every time you send me a video, it's some new technique that he's figured out and he didn't really
by the untrained eye, he didn't have the skill set for
And then he became the boss, you know what I mean? So, I think it's just you have to you have to give that as much weight as natural to if not more I'd say more.
Yeah, I would certainly say more for Science and you know the people are in the lab late at night and early in the morning and drilling away. Not not always the smartest, certainly not the dumbest, but smart enough to show up when other people are leaving and continue. And I think there has to
A little bit of friction internally, you know? Maybe maybe externally also but just some friction. Some I'm going to show you.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. My best example of that and I haven't talked about this yet because I did a privately but I broke my leg doing to make twist something that I've done thousands of times in my 4540. Yeah, so it's a one and a half spin in the backside Direction but that particular grab that you do.
Do makes it a mctwist because it makes you kind of flip upside down. So it's kind of a one-and-a-half somersault, it's not my tricks, might McGill's trick, I learned it not long after he created it in 1984 been doing it ever since. I mean I'm talking about 40 years in which was right, I've gotten her once or twice but not bad.
Anyway, I fucked around and found out did one with no speed last year thinking I could do it, like I was still 20 and got tangled up and broke my femur.
I had a super long recovery, I had a false start. I had a non-union fracture, which means my bone never connected back to itself and it kept pushing itself further away and that's all in the past. I got a second surgery in November and all along in the back of my head is I got to get back to 540s. I have to
And I can't explain why I have to. I hate that it means that much to me.
But it it's in here, you know? I mean it's not it's not a sense of Pride. It's not like I have to prove this to anyone. I just have to do it and last week I did it. It was so scary.
And I prepped for it. I mean I even down to like my diet and I stopped drinking altogether and I was like every time I go to the ramp, I'm just trying 540 is like to get the spin to get the to get the landing Zone with no intention of making it just that I had to get there. And then I had to have this heart-to-heart with my wife that you know she doesn't want to see me get her, she's gonna see me risking myself this age anymore. She doesn't want to live through another traumatic injury with me.
And I had to tell her like I have to do this, she was gracious and accepting and that's all I could ask for. It wasn't like she was like yeah you got to go do it was like, okay.
It's who you are. And so she was there. She was my only spectator
so good. I confess I've seen a video of this and my first response was F. Yes. And my second response was that was really high. Like this is no, you know, just above coping 540, this isn't even, you know, this is a head high
540, I'm not gonna make the same mistake. I did last time where I try to low thinking, I just get away with it anymore. So,
The going high was more of a safety measure which is ironic the, the bigger, the ramps for me the safer it is because I have a better Landing Zoom have more time in the air to adjust and even though it looks spectacular and he's six feet in there. Is this is like no I need that. I can't skate some a foot pool. I have no Landing zone. I'm Too Tall. I'm to I moved too slowly. Now to do that kind of stuff.
So that's why you don't see me like in the Park events, stuff like that. You know, you're going to see me on this 14-foot vert ramp, because that's my happy place, and that's where I'm safe. But also having my wife there, I just knew I was going to get her in front of her.
Because I would have been such trouble. D,
the emotional support and pressure is, is a real thing. And in the best ways, not to focus on the bad aspects of the injury because they're either planning. Yeah, that I recall you and I communicated not long after the let's say let's call it. What it was the first break and I remember you said to me over text. You said how long before I'm skateboarding again and I said skateboarding as in pushing
Thing or skateboarding as in what you do on vert, you know, and you said what I do on vert and I said, well seems you are doing a lot of things. You were doing deliberate, cold delivery. He pressure, you do a number of things. I mean, you're not haphazard about your career and your body and your health will get into that a little bit later, some of the things that you've enjoyed as beneficial for you but you said I'm calling it at two months and I said, okay I believe it. And then I recall that
You was at the Oscars or some other award event where you came out about a week later, you came out there,
you walked out just broken femur and you weren't using any support to walk out. So you clearly ditched whatever support you might have been using, which I think is Awesome by the way. And then pretty soon I was seeing videos of you dropping in. I've seen videos of you doing, kickturns below coping. I've seen videos of you at coping. And, you know, we have a friend in common, the skip skateboard and
Generally photographer, Mike blade back. And I remember texting Mike, I was like Tony's back already. This is this is superhuman rates of healing and I think it is superhuman rates of healing. Then you mentioned that you damaged broke, broke the femur again. So did you allow more rest of the second time? What was driving you to get back in it? So personally, but first, go around, I just didn't listen to any
of the professional advice because I thought, well, I've done, I've come this far, and I've always been able to push through broken, pelvis, broken elbow, knee surgeries. And I've always been the timelines, always very shortened for me because I just get back out there and I get the healing started. But I also am comfortable with what people think is extremely risky. But in this instance, I want to get back out there right away.
And not long after the Academy Awards, I was actually walking with a cane at that time. And I ditched the can just to walk out on stage to present the awards. That was my big, my big coming-out moment, but it was kind of forced. And as soon as I walk out to say they've got Mike and I was hobbling in the backstage, but I was I was skating kind of a mini ramp and, and I was already struggling because I couldn't put my weight on my front foot because
My bone still had not connected to itself. So there's a gap in the bone, but there's a, there's a nail, but they called nail or, you know, big piece of metal that's holding them in place, but I didn't realize how careful I need to be with that because it was so precarious. And I decided I'm going to drop in on the mini ramp. Like, I think I'm ready and it wasn't the drop in, on the mini ramp. It was me getting to the top of the mini ramp and stepping off my boy.
That's always that kind of
stuff, but I just stepped off my board. Like, I would do any other day, but I didn't think
LED with my front foot and I felt the bone move in that moment. I really felt it. I felt it either twist or get out of place and I was in total denial for months because I just said, oh, I just it just hurts now. Like I, you know, I I got a minor setback and then I finally, eight months into my recovery seven months into my recovery. I was always in pain. My skating wasn't
Regressing, I couldn't get speed and by all measures, I should be back. At least, I'd be back to a level that I feel good about.
And I went and got x-rays and they said your bone never connected. You have a non-union fracture and and every time I skated so my bones like this, every time I skated I was pushing it further away.
And so my bone was like this on the last X-ray and and that was the hard truth. So for those listening just laterally displaced thing about a pipe, that's broken in the middle and just one offset to the other. And as I keep skating and I could force my skit. Like I kind of learned this hack where I can put 75 percent of my weight on my back foot and 25% my front foot and do what I wanted to do. But it wasn't where I thought I'd be and it just hurt all the time. I mean, it really was like that was my trigger.
because I have a pretty high tolerance to pain and it was always her like I would dread going to the airport knowing I had to walk to a gate
So I knew something was wrong there. I went to a specialist that deals and non-union fractures and he had a very pragmatic factual approach. It was like I would do this, I'm take that nail Adam, take the other Hardware out and put it together and you cannot move for two months.
Did you obey that order Dead, really? Yeah, so what is shelling? I
was not gonna risk that again.
Did you and do you prioritize? Things like sleep nutrition. Just, you know, generally and did you emphasize those things while you were recovering from the injury?
Yeah, I was very disciplined in my diet in my schedule and my sleep surprisingly. I was very busy.
Because I do speaking engagements and suddenly my speaking engagements were getting booked left and right. I mean to the point where I did a tour through Europe last summer of speaking engagements so that was something that was a silver lining I guess to my my idle time and I lean into it, you know I made myself available and and you know it's good money and it's fun to interact and but
Through all through that, of course, in the back of my head is like, when when can I skate, when can I skate? And then when I finally started skating, it was night and day with my leg. I felt like I could lean forward. Suddenly I was learning tricks, every, every session re learning tricks. So I just, I just lucky that I got to live in this time of modern medicine, was that two months? The longest you've ever gone without skateboarding vert. Yeah.
Yeah, without skating at all. Not even just pushing her out now. Good for you for obeying doctor's orders and also any good and also good for you for deciding that your rate of recovery is going to be whatever it is for you, because I feel like I'm hearing both things. On the one hand, you listen to the medical professionals on the other hand, I'm not hearing, oh, you know, I looked at the average rate of recovery from this kind of fracture this and that it's it's like it's as if you decided two things at once that there are experts who
Who have something to offer me here, I'll follow their advice and yet I'm the expert at myself here. I'm putting myself in your first person Tony's the expert in Tony and I'm going to make sure that I come back 100%. Yeah, or better? Yeah, not better. But and I have come to terms with that because I know that I'm not going to be pushing myself the way that I did before I got hurt anymore, there are some tricks now that are way more difficult just because whatever, it's
Change in my body and Frances, I can't grab slob. Like I can't, I can't do it. Consistently that used to be my go-to grub. Could do that any time over a 60-foot gaps, whatever. Like I could just grab, I knew where my board was. I knew that was going to hold on to my feet and half the time I try to grab that way. Now I don't reach it or I grab my foot instead and I don't know, I can't make the adjustment to fix it. And so I've just sort of come to terms with. Well, that's not the
Go to gravity more and that's okay, your kids. I had a good run. Yeah, York,
it's pretty pretty vast. So there's a lot of other things to reach to aside from the 540, which by the way, congratulations, not only, is it a 540, but done at least head high. I've seen it with my own eyes and, and under really great circumstances, your wife there, just the two of you and after and the trick that broke the femur in the first place. So congratulations on that.
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Off any of inside trackers plans. Again, that's inside track, or.com huberman to get 20% off. Are there other things that you you're thinking, you know, can't wait to get back to that. Let's set aside slaw bears for now. Yeah. Um,
Yeah, I want to get my hand plants back ways to do them I have yet. Yeah. It's so in bird. Likes one-handed handstand. I can do them now but I've seen you to them recently. Yeah. But but I used they used to be my signature was a tucking ever and flopped all the way back and and I can't get ahold of my board to pull it all the way back like I used to, if I can get that, I'll feel like that's it. That's that's that was the last milestone.
I'm not here to diagnose and treat. These specific skateboard trick isms. But between your what you said about the slob are and what you're saying about this itself, seems like there's some crab out about getting your your your front hand around and around my pouring it back, back it up behind you. So maybe this is like the way that the femur is lining up with your pelvis and maybe some off-ramp, something, or other Physical Therapy could do. I'm actually working with best car. He is a, he is the doctor of physical.
Abby and he has helped me immensely through my recovery and when I'm frustrated with this motion or that's the same grab actually as a Twist, he worked on me before it and was just contorting my body and my leg into these positions. That I don't really even get to when I'm skating just to prepare me for that, and he did, but that's what it took.
It's interesting that we're talking about skateboarding and
And we're also talking about physical therapists. We're talk about nutrition. We're talking about sleep. So growing up
and he's like nothing, none of that. None of that never
imagined another never a Time chuckling because, you know, growing up in skateboarding early on for me, not quite as early as you but pretty early 12 and got out of it and back and yes, I can still do a thing or two here and there, but that's not the point. The point is that, you know, the nutrition consisted largely of, you know, fast food or whatever was around.
Found cigarettes, and beer. We're sort of the, the energy drinks and and supplements of the times, this is fortunately change, but there there was essentially no health-promoting tools or aspects to it at all. But that was back then. But then over time, it seems It's evolved. Like now I see, I saw a couple post from Stevie Williams, like he's in the gym. Sure, I think I saw Danny Way early on working with Paul check and doing some balance work, neck work.
Because he had broken his neck, surfing and things of that sort. So there seems to have been a big shift over the last 15-20 years where skateboarders are taking good care of their bodies. Like other athletes thinking about the resilience of their bodies and also generally taking better care, like a lot of them opted not to drink and do drugs and all those sorts of things. So, I mean, how does it strike you to see the way that skateboarding is evolved towards the option to be much healthier? And treat it like a, like a serious sport. Where you're a serious athlete, a word that you know, even
In 15 years ago, 20 years ago, if you called us give border and athlete, some people might even be offended by. Yeah, people in skateboarding. Right? Absolutely yeah. Well, to answer your question in the early days
That was part of the the scene in the culture just because the it was the antithesis to organize team sports and mainstream culture. And so it was just like, yeah, this is what we do. Fucking who cares? Like we drank and we skate and and everyone it was it was Wild West, right? But as I never fell into that deeply because I saw how it affected people's performances, and the skating itself was Paramount to me, that is what I want to focus.
Hassan. That's what I want to be good at and I saw people partying and partying their skills away. So I had at least that forethought and then as scanning got more established popular more of a career option than people started taking it more seriously especially competitors, I mean and but there's such a wide swath of what skateboarding is and it's a big tent so to say that it's more organized. Yes. It's
Guys over here, there's still all these skaters over here, partying hopping fences, don't care about contest, don't want sponsor.
So, like GX 1000, like, those kids that bomb Hills in San Francisco, like, like, but that, that's what, that's, what is the diversity of it all. And that's, we're all part of this scene. So I was a competitor that was, that was my path to success. And so, I appreciate that. People take it more seriously now and that they do have trainer they have resources.
I mean they have sponsors that will pay for this kind of stuff. There was no such thing. I mean like at our biggest skate contest, we were all staying at Stacy Peralta parents house the night before and he would take us out to get spaghetti because he thought carbohydrates was going to give us energy the next day. That was the extent of training in 1983, right? But nowadays were treated like high Elite.
Athletes because they are like, if you really look at people that are at the top of their field, people like Nyjah Huston, you know what I mean? Like, the dudeism machine he is, he is one of the most precise skaters that we've ever seen, or precise athletes, decide of Nadia Comaneci, you know? Yes, I'm aging myself, but
What I'm saying is like, this is, this is takes hardcore, dedication, Precision athleticism, and devotion. And so now they have the resources to back that up and to keep it going longer. I mean, yeah, I would, I be able to do this now, especially after getting hurt without the help of a doctor of physical training. Probably not. I do it on some level but I wouldn't get to where I am now and
So hey, I think it's awesome. You know, I never I never wanted to covet skateboarding as thing. That no one else gets like a gatekeeper to it. No one else can touch it. I always thought there was something to skateboarding that was magical and that was good for mental health and that was that was required such required passion. And I didn't, I never understood why I didn't get bigger through those those lean here.
Who's always liked kids. This speaks to kid like it's Daredevil and it's active, and it's exciting and you can do it as a group, but you can do it your own way. And I don't know all those things, it took a long time for everyone else to figure it out. They definitely figure it out. I mean, nowadays, skaters of the cool kids in school. Yeah, it's in the Olympics, like, there's always discussion, would it be? It was an exhibition sport in the Olympics at one point. No, no, no, no. I thought it was it for, maybe it had a run. It potentially being an exhibition. There were there was talk about it.
It got it. Um, but it never did and not that. I mean, it's some point, especially in the late 90s, early 2000s.
Skating was getting appreciated and and kind of reached that threshold of is it mainstream? Well it's in it's all McDonald's commercial so I guess that's pretty mainstream and so we already had come of age and it was like we don't need the Olympics we're already more popular than a lot of Olympic sports. Right. So why do we need their validation? And then, at some point it became like the the power Dynamic shifted and it was like, oh they need our cool Factor.
We don't need their validation and I was like, yeah, okay, you guys want it? Sure. Go ahead would hold the events. Hold the qualifiers will participate, but we don't need this.
Well, you've been an amazing Ambassador for the sport, that's driven so much of that wider acceptance and progression and invitation into different domains. One of the things that I definitely want to talk about is the video game because I think that the video game changed a lot of things for the general public in terms of their perception of skateboarding. I mean what it allowed of course, is this is obvious, but it allowed kids that weren't going to, you know.
Bang up their shins or walk in with a broken wrist or, you know, all skinned up to, to do incredible tricks. But in silico on a screen, right? And to pretend that they are the pro skateboarder, let's just actually what video games are about. And yet when you can see something, just like you can imagine it in a dream or while you're falling asleep and you can see something and here in air quotes, do something in a video game. It also is going to inspire a number of kids to go outside and grab a real skateboard.
And try that or try something like that. So clearly the video game was a catalyst for what I consider. Now, the wide acceptance of skateboarding as a sport in all its various forms. Could you just talk for a little bit about the Genesis of the video game? Where you into video games, prior to the video game? Were you into technology generally and what sort of motivated the interest in the video game? Because it certainly has changed the face of actual skateboarding and the perception of skateboarding?
Well, I've been into video games since the gecko. I mean, I was a kid you know playing pong, Pac-Man Missile, Command Qbert, you name it. And then getting the home systems and television Super NES. Commodore 64, Sangha, Sega. Yeah, but but I, and I always loved technology. So when I, when I finally started making money in the 80s, my first kind of big purchase in terms of that
In terms of electronics was Commodore Amiga, which was considered one of the highest end home computers, you know, alongside Mac, but, but more graphic oriented and, and more game oriented. And so, I was always into that idea, that you could do this kind of stuff at home, not just in arcades.
And then I got a, I got a call from a PC programmer that wanted to pitch a skate game and had a crude engine of skater that cruise around going bowls and stuff like that. And yet was all keyboard control. It was clunky, but it was something. And the last thing that we had as skating was 720 in the arcade or skater die for home systems, for Commodore 64, that was like, the last thing that a
It happened for skateboarding in video games and so, I went with him, I was excited to get like I got to, we got to go to Nintendo and Pitch it, we went to Midway, you know, we went to all these different console and software manufacturers and were just told that this is a bad idea. Skateboarding is not popular home, video games are barely a thing. Why would anyone want to buy a video game about skateboarding? Someone said those exact words
Meet at Midway. And so he got frustrated and he needed to find a job and I was I was just kind of free-floating so I said okay. And because well I mean I'm not going to do this but I feel like you've established yourself at least in the video game world industry that you're interested in doing something. So maybe someone does something they'll call you and I was like yeah, right sure. Sure. Enough, like a year later Activision called me and they said, hey, we heard you want to do a video game. I said well,
Yes, I would love to work on a video game. I'm not a programmer or anything, so we have something working on. It would like to show it to you. And so, I went up to Activision, they were working on a skate game, but it was based on an engine of a game that was already released called apocalypse. Starring Bruce Willis. So the first version of my game was Bruce Willis, on a skateboard with a gun strapped to his back in a desert Wasteland doing kickflips and it was awesome.
It was truly like I picked it up and I got past that Visual and then I started playing it and it was intuitive, the motion felt right. The engine was right. And I was like, this is this is the Baseline of something special. I didn't think it was going to be some big hit. I just thought this is. This is going to be appreciated by skateboarders. And that was my goal, the entire development process, which was about a year and a half after I signed on
We threw that year and a half. We were going back and forth with they would, they would FedEx me. Builds on CDs. I had a modified PlayStation and I would play it, make nodes. And I thought man, sceeto is going to dig this and that was it and skating wasn't even that popular. It was coming to, you know, it was starting to get some traction. What year was this again? Like 98. Uh-huh. So it was like, X Games were starting to come into the fold. People were taking note of what skateboarding had become at that point. And then I thought
It's going to be cool, skaters going to like it and then not long before the release they called me. And they said, hey, we want to, we want to offer you a buyout, a future royalties for this game because I think you know there's I think people going to like it looks like, what does that mean? They go, we will give you a half million dollars and then you don't get royalties going forward, but you get that money up front.
And at that time my life like to hear someone say half a million dollars. Seriously sounded like a half a billion dollars. Like no one had ever talked about numbers that big to me. Well, also 98 was a little bit of a quiet time for vert. Skateboarding to, right. All right. Yeah. It was all about the general. But yeah. For luckily, vert skating.
Still was a thing because of inline skating because inline skating was huge right? Late 90s and they were all vert. And so we as skaters got to sort of ride those coattails because it was like a there are very ramps because everyone's rollerblading, I forgot about that that did like and I had honestly, like I was the special guest at a couple of inline roller blade shows where was like, this is team rollerblade live in special guest Tony Hawk, the skateboarder and I was like, yeah, I all right.
Right. Dropping in, but it paid the bills. Yeah. So to answer to like, too soon from what you're saying, vert skating was it was a thing at least established in the X Games which was something and enough for us to make a living.
so when they offered me, this money,
I actually was in a pretty good place in terms of
My, I don't know my options, my my trajectory and I felt like and I had just bought a new home and I thought I'm gonna take a chance and see what happens. And I that was the best financial decision I ever made. Took the equity. Yeah, I just let her ride and what that was like, no. I want to see what happens with this. And
As soon as the game was released, it was getting Stellar reviews and then I remember like the very next week after it was released. Never stop saying. Okay we're working on number two. What do you want to do? Like what do you mean? We are. We're doing a sequel with what? Awesome. Then we end up doing. Like 10, amazing crazy, amazing.
I'm thinking about your decision to not take the cash and to see how it would go. I'm thinking about your decision to buy a car at 16 and as a consequence, get pulled over because you look younger, I'm thinking about the time when through the graciousness of your parents who took me in because I had no money to get back up to Northern California and they couldn't get a hold of my mom. They took me to your home but then they took me to where you were living the next day, which was in Fallbrook. You don't remember this, but I do
And I know you've heard this story before. So forgive me because most people listening haven't but I remember getting driven up to Fallbrook yet, the ramps in your backyard. I walked in got introduced to you, you were very gracious at. Hello. What's up said? Feel free to push around on the ramps outside. He was the mini, it was a spine around. Yeah, two ramps back-to-back, folks spine. Sorry nomenclature. I think Ray Underhill was there. Yeah, he lived there for a while. Yeah. And as I recall, you had a pretty vast music collection. We'll talk about.
Music. But it also seemed yet you're, there are a couple cars in the driveway and whatnot, but it's clear to me, based on a number of things and that interaction and what I observed there that either you had someone in your ear, either your dad, or your mom, or both, or maybe it had been Stacey or maybe it was somebody else who was advising you to make very good financial decisions. Like not spend all your money or continue to spend all your money to invest in things.
Or maybe it was just instilled in you at a young age, who knows? I'm asking because I think so many people burn their early success. You know, what, represents a lot of wealth for them early on? They burn that or they start making just bad decisions you explained before why you tended to avoid drugs and alcohol, certainly any severe relationship to drugs or alcohol, that would keep you from progressing in skateboarding. But, you know, the ability to make really good decisions as a young famous
- athlete is more rare than it is common even when people have coaches. So I'm curious that, you know, where did that shrewdness and that Prudence come from and was Frank, your dad and maybe Nancy also, you know, advising you all alone like hey, you know, think smart be smart because clearly you made some some very smart decisions. He was definitely.
A guide in it. He was the first one who said you should probably buy real estate. I was 17. So I didn't even know that was possible, but he co-signed made it possible but then after that, I ended up buying that home that you went to and it was for acre property and we built these ramps on it and that was amazing. And definitely helped Propel my skating to a different level than I ever imagined. But at some point,
That was just a drain and it was a drain financially. And I was living beyond my means, and my income kept dropping, because we're talking about not long after, that was 91 92 slowest days of skating. And I've got this giant mortgage and I've got this property in these ramps. That I can't afford to upkeep. I can barely afford. My water bill and one point, you know? And so what you saw might have seemed stable, but behind the scenes, it was it was starting to unravel.
Album birdhouse hadn't been started, birdhouse was started in 92. And when I started birdhouse, I took the equity from that house to start it because I didn't burn through my savings from trying to keep this place going. So I took a second mortgage out on that house or I took my Equity out started bird house sold the house for what I had taken out and then moved to my original place that I had when I was in high school and just
Pulled back on expenses. I think that was the that was when I really became shrewd
Because I had to, I had, I had a first child, I had an income that was very uncertain, very fluctuating, and I was just eating Taco Bell. And Top Ramen, and a red jelly sandwiches, and, and not spending anything, and taking every job, like, the most random demo requests, or we want you to be a consultant on this commercial, because I'm 20, I'm 24. I'm too old to be
The guy skating because it has to be youth, right? But they're like, well, we want to see what's possible. So can you come up the day before and show us the ropes? And so I would be the stunt skater that's filling in to show them the Angles and stuff. And then they would go higher Chet Thomas as a young kid and then I would stand around. I was getting paid. I didn't care. I think, I remember those commercials is a cereal commercial. Something like the cereal commercial was, Chris Miller, Frosted Flakes. And I was Tony the Tiger.
Guys, you chat. Yeah, I threw out the birdhouse, which is your company but without telling people what is it? Skateboard company. I remember Willie Santos was early on. I remember he's super. Nice kid used to see him at the contest. I remember thinking well, Tony Hawk has his own company for skateboarders. That was revolutionary
had a team, you know, like Willie. Willie was a maestro, Jeremy Klein legendary Street Pai.
Pioneer, Steve Berra, who is kind of a be called a TV. But Street and vert we had ocean Howell was like our number one amateur. We had Andrew Reynolds, Matt Beach. We had a team because it was fun. Was it fun to move from Rider, to also Rider. But team manager owner, was it fun? It was just necessary. Can't say. It was fun. I mean, yeah, it was, it was fun because we were
still just kind of Reckless and driving. You six of us in a van driving to skate shops across the country and begging them for 300 bucks so that we could get gas and food and hotel room and get on our way. I don't know it just it. But for me, it just felt like a necessity to keep to. That was what I had to do to make a brand happen.
And so I was willing to do it and but it was exhausting. Yeah, because I had to be the
Had to be the coach and the tour manager and the skater.
You know, I was putting myself out there I'm like the worst conditions and just rolling my ankle left and right and it was in, it was all Street and it was just wasn't my thing. It was, it was hard, but I just, I loved it. I made it
happen in my mind. I'm thinking you had to be Tony Hawk, the skateboarder Frank Hawk, the organizer? Yeah. And Stacy Peralta the yeah, because Stacey had been a pro skateboarder. I still think of him as a skateboarder. You have a nice filmmaker rice skateboard. Just like, I still think is Spike. Jonze is skateboarder.
Her bmxer filmmaker seems like you had to integrate all of those and I mention that because I am curious, I think a lot of people are probably curious, are you the type person likes it back in a chair at night and things like, okay, like how I'm going to do, this are being, are you contemplative? Or is it really you just identify what needs to be done this year and over the next three years? And you know, set your Milestones kind of short in I
guess an hour back. Not back then oh no, everything was just in the moment we got
Out here we got to get to Dallas by tomorrow. It's like, as soon as this demo is over get in the van were gone.
We got to get a hotel room, it was just stuff like that. It was, it was very much but but I, I respected, I think I learned to respect punctuality
Because I travel with plenty of skaters that were not and didn't care and show up late and was like, dude and like I don't know these guys and then when I was in charge, he was like, we're going to be on time because we have to respect other people's time and we said we're going to be here at 3:00. We're going to be 3:00 and
That's not easy with a skate crew like playback who as you know, is integral to the hearing loud podcast. I talked about that. We've got some other guys that came over from d.c. to as filmers and editors for us and, you know, they're so punctual and they're so on it. And I know it's you showed up early today, right? Right. On time or early early, about five minutes. And that is a distinguishing factor. I think in any occupation but especially in skateboarding, where there's this kind of loose,
Sure. And so if you do show up on time really means a lot, the professionalism that, you know, was instilled in you, it's clear the different places where that showing up mentioned the shrewdness about the business decisions. I'm curious about another aspect of that, which is maybe a little more cryptic which is, you know, whether or not it was the CD collection that I saw where your mention of the car you're just in video games. It seems that one thing that you've done that a lot of guys that I knew, cause back then, by the way, it was mostly
Guys. Now, as we said, women doing it to women and girls, it seems like you have a lot of other hobbies and interests music and Etc. But that we never heard about you getting Vic distracted or pull down those lines. Like it, we didn't hear about you, going and surfing, and getting her hurt surfing, so that you couldn't skate. We're getting really into motorcycles or race racing cars, right? You know, some people went hard left out of skateboarding into that, like Ken Block the late, great can block.
But that became his main thing seems like you, you knew that skateboarding was the Mainframe and stayed with that and yet you have a lot of other interests. Yeah, I think I well, with other sports especially like Motocross. I I have this huge respect for Motocross. I think it's super exciting. I would love to do it. And I know that I would not Escape unscathed, like I would definitely want to learn the tricks.
Do you webs and flips and whatever and I'm going to get hurt and I don't want to risk my ski career for that. So I purposely pulled away from that type of thing. The last knee surgery I had is because I overshot a jump in Mammoth on my snowboard so that was the lesson was like, don't what are you doing? Just Cruise y-yeah, stay on the ground, right? Hit the powder, right? You know, free ride with your Bros because I learned my
And so so yeah, you're right. But at the same time like I still, I still love going surfing and snowboarding. I don't do them as much obviously, but but those are part of what I did all growing up and they're important to me. I did you know do a couple of celebrity car races like a NASCAR race and I totally car in the Long Beach Grand Prix because this dude ramming to the wall was like, well, that was fun but I'm not I don't I
Don't have the bandwidth to get that serious about it and now you have a family, of course to. So of course. Yeah. I mean, and and those things as fun as they are and as
I don't know, as sort of auxiliary as they are, they require a lot of time.
I mean just for instance that Long Beach Grand Prix and they want you to go stay in Palmdale for like a week and a half and train and and figure out how to truly know how to drive and be safe and it's like I don't got time for that. Yeah that's time you're not skateboarding or with your family right? Yeah right.
I feel the same way if I get pulled away from Reading papers and prepping podcasts and reading the latest research and thinking about experiments we could do. Then I, for more than a couple of days, I started feeling the itch. I have a feeling that stuff is programmed.
In one's nervous system after a while. Like you've been skateboarding for so long that if you go a few days it's probably just your system is it's like depriving over water or something. Yeah, for
sure. I mean well, just for instance, our ramp is being torn down on Sunday. Today is Friday around, was being torn down on Sunday, at ten am to be moved to Salt Lake City for our big vert event. I'm going there at 8:30, so I can get a session for. I could start down. I love it on Father's Day.
That's my father's day. I'm going to work at 8:30 a.m. on Sunday. I love it. Speaking of
family and lineage tell us about your kids. You got some talented skateboarders in your family, besides yourself. I do.
Well I have for my own and I have two stepkids and they all skate my daughter not so much anymore, but all the boys. Five boys are all really into it. My oldest son is the most
He's the most prominent because he turned Pro and has I mean, you know, he has his own following because a name for himself Riley and he's 30.
Yeah, he kills it on Street. His big street
skateboard, he does. Yeah, but that, you know, they're they're all good, they're all good. Skaters in their own ways and
It's so fun. I mean, I I didn't, of course, they're surrounded by it their whole life, especially Riley because when he was young, I didn't really have the means to have child care or whatever. So I said, take him with me on tourism whatnot so he was always around it. So he got good at it by default. But at some point started to shy away from it because he felt the pressure and My Shadow. And it was like, I don't, this isn't fun. I don't people expect me to be super good. Or I have to do this stuff. And so he went shied away.
But then found a bunch of his friends and high school. There were they love skating. He's still good at us. So he they found his crew and they've all found their Crews completely independent of me. And so, when we go on vacation, for instance, we were last year, we were in, or two years ago, we are on the big island Hawaii. They wanted to skate parks. I don't wanna go skate parks. I'm on vacation,
it's also little harsh stuff. It's a great way to get hurt, right? What's that over in Hawaii?
- yeah, it's all weather
worn my scene. But but then so I go I'm, I'm so I'm their chauffeur and I'm their filmer. I love it. That's my vacation but but because they all love it so much. You know what I mean? And it just, it's so cool. Like, I mean, how could I ever asked for more? It's amazing,
let's talk about Frank and Nancy a little bit, just because I have this kind of odd connection to your family through that. So it's really two or three day, interaction, change changed my life forever meeting. You was spectacular as a youngster,
According kid, but also just the idea that someone would literally take me into their home. I mean they had every reason to not trust me. First of all, I was hanging out with Billy Waldman. No explanation needed, that people who knew Billy. I hope he's doing well. I haven't heard anything about him, but I hope he's doing well. But we were wild, but he basically took me into your home. He and Nancy took me in, you know, fed us or fed me and another friend with me and, you know, I just have to
Say as you're describing your family I can only imagine what it must have been like for Frank and Nancy to see you have your kids. Did they get to live long enough to see that Riley and your other
kids were skateboarders. Dad met Riley, but my dad passed away when Riley was too. So he's the only one of my kids that he met. Yeah my older sibling had kids so he met
Two of his other grandkids besides Riley. My mom got to see some of Riley's success but she suffered from Alzheimer's dementia and so things slipped away. But um I think that my dad would not believe the skateboard he's in the Olympics to him. That's that is the top of the mountain because he was really into others.
Well, he loves sports, he loved the Olympics. He loved he loved watching football, he loved watching baseball. He loves when the Olympics were on. He just he loved the competition element and the hype of it. And and I think there was part of him that felt like why isn't skateboarding in this, you know, but he knew that there were so many hurdles to get through and so much more acceptance needed to happen. And I don't think imagine whatever happened.
He was a special guy. I can still hear his
voice. He's a very large guy to. I don't know if you I was just smaller than I definitely want smaller. Yeah, I know, I'm, he had like a big presence and and I know I've told you this many times before is actually how we got reconnected. I send you a direct message and said, hey I met your parents. In fact, they took me into your home and I'm telling the truth and you'll know I'm telling the truth because they took me to dinner and they ordered black coffee after dinner. Yeah, and, you know, for years, I would order black coffee after during units as a kid. You're just so
Oppression will. These really nice people took me in. I was like wow this is what a really healthy family. Looks like I'm grateful to have loving parents, always did, but I didn't have the healthy family structure. So for me it was like, oh my goodness. These people drink black coffee after this must be what healthy families do. So, by the way, folks don't drink caffeine within eight hours of going to sleep, but,
but I still do
that. But well, it doesn't seem to be holding you back individualized. But yeah, it's spectacular that this
Lineage of, you know, Frank to you. And I mentioned a Nancy because it seems like while she might not have been at the contest and run around setting up tables and doing all that. Like she clearly was supportive as well.
All she wasn't allowed the events to, I mean, they need all hands on deck when it started getting big and no one was taking salaries. You know that's the thing is that people thought like, oh your dad's like caching on is he never took a money for any of that and he took so much shit. You know what I mean? He just he just loved it. It was for you it. Well, add. But from a
Jenny went to been there was for me and it was also for the Misfits that I surrounded myself with and even though he was he was Brash and he was like, you know, he was, you know, what's the word? He was foreboding and intimidating and whatever else he did it. For all those kids that were kind of lost like you, I mean, it really like you he loved that it brought them together that it gave them a sense of self. A give him a sense of purpose. He saw that because he
he was that he really had a rough childhood and he did everything he could through his adult life to make up for it with his own kids and with the kids that they surround him themselves with. So that's, that's what he loved about it. Of course, he loves seeing me Thrive to but he loved that, he created the safe space and this this sense of community. So I'm up, my mom was that was her thing was getting people together.
Gatherings, you know, all we should all get together like even even my siblings and I, as much as we want to emulate our parents, we don't do it as much that as they did and we regret that,
well, there's still time.
No. We, I mean we do but It's Tricky. We're all different earrings.
Sure. Yeah, the person that comes to mind when I think about your dad. I'm forgetting the movie. But there's this one Clint Eastwood movie where he lives in a neighborhood where I think it's a bunch of you.
Young mung gangsters El Camino Del Camino. Yeah, and I just remember like there's that scene of like clean coming out on his porch and just standing really upright. Everything in his front is front. Lawn is everything, super manicured and just standing there like this immense presence and that's how I remember Frank
Hawk. Yeah, but he was a total softie. That's the thing. That's the best. You know, there was a it was it was all a front.
Well, he was certainly very
anxious and I'm like, you know, you got, you got to see that side of him where it's like, oh yeah. Come on, we'll take you out. You want to go see Tony's Place? Let's go like that's not some hard-ass.
Well, there's a tail. End of the story to where he actually called my mom. And I think there may have been a statement or two about hey, this gets 14 like he can't be in Linda Vista Boys Club taking the bus back to Lancaster etcetera, etcetera, May been some discussion like that but then they also paid for me to go home.
Oh yeah, they flew me home. Yeah, so I think I owe you a couple hundred bucks for a Southwest flight or whatever Airline it was. Well it's fun. And I think important to reminisce about these people because they aren't just your parents but they done so much and through you. You know I really think that emotions and stories are really like the equivalent of energy in humans. You know when people talk about energy because that gets carried forward, speaking of which, we share a common love
Of some particular music, are you? Somebody who listens to music, to sort of, to inspire you to get amped up to go skateboard? It's music and important part of your life. Yeah, let's put it this way. I had, I had a playlist for my 540 the other day. Okay, fine, tune to that trick. And what would get me motivated and hyped to to do it, you don't have to share with us what's on the playlist unless you choose to but was it high energy, low energy, high energy.
Well, and and some meaningful songs like new orders ceremony and see, nice nails getting smaller because that was a song we used. And one of our big skate tourism. It was one of the most high energy sections of the show. Gosh, there were so I can't go through all of them. I forget, um, gang of four
Wait, Aang for is shit. I forgot. What is it? I find that Essence rare.
Fires up. So I had I had like 10 there were just going to if any of those played its I'm going to make it and and I knew that it was about an hour and a half and that's as long as I'm going to try it before. I'm too tired. So you're listening in the warehouse or you listening in the warehouse on random and then the song that I made it to was off of that Prodigy, album fat of the lamb and it's called climatized instrumental. I use it for a birdhouse edit when for
In one was the thing when were these little like video newsletter type things. Yeah. Anyway so when that song came on, I was feeling it. I made it fantastic. I love this because you know, the neuroscientist and me is immediately going to say, you know, we have this brain that loves to take in information and discard other information, but paired Association is so strong. Yeah, and when you couple that with some sense of reward like the making of the very old below
Coping as it has early in life or making the 540 as a come back to. You know, the injury after the injury is
almost like, I loved all that music. But I was indoctrinated by it through the skate parks, because that was the soundtrack to this game was. It was punk music. It was Sex Pistols, and, and 999, and Black Flag, Devo, and X Buzzcocks. And, you know, that was, that's what I kept hearing. And that's what I associate.
With my best of times, it's in your nervous system. Yeah.
Yeah. There's a few voices. You know, rancid, and Tim Armstrong and the
Operation Ivy Operation Ivy takes for the sound system. Exhaust system was on that playlist was on the 540 playlist.
All right you know Tim will be so happy to hear that and Matt Freeman, the bass player and Jesse Michaels is now playing again with Tim right lead singer of Operation Ivy. Yeah with your new gig what's it called they had a name and then they they changed it.
Oh okay. Initially it was why don't want to say cuz they changed it for a reason but we know where I know they're making music. Yeah, which is amazing operation. I was incredible. My yearbook photo for, I think two years running was the cover of Operation Ivy because I didn't show up for the yearbook photo. Speaking of which did you show up for yearbook photos or did you graduate high school? I graduated high school but didn't go to any of the events.
Prom or any of the auxiliary? I didn't know. I mean I was I was an outcast like I was not even though I had success in skating skating wasn't cool and I was not home he's with anyone at school except for two other skaters and we felt very ostracized so nah. Yeah, I did show up for the graduation because because my mom and dad want to see it. Yeah. Likewise I graduated but I could tell you more about the curbs in the parking lot of my high.
Cool. That I could about anything that happened in the class. And I broke so many sprinkler heads, because the sprinkler heads were right next to the curb. There was a double sided curb. And so he born, slide because I go there early and boardslide. And then I just like lean too far in and break the sprinkler head and never got caught what high school. Well, I went to a couple, I went to Sarah High School originally. Then I went to San dieguito High School, which is in North County and then I ended up at Torrey Pines. I got so bullied at San dieguito that I requested to be transferred.
Because II couldn't go, I couldn't survive, there's a skater, I would have to hide my skateboard in the bushes before class and then go find it after school so that people wouldn't Target. Me 80s were rough. It was like a jockey was like a John Hughes, film it. Well, for sure. So do it was jocks versus nerds and then skaters were like not even considered in that realm because they're just going to get they're going to get hammered because there were so few of us.
Well things have changed and not only have things have changed such that skateboarding as far more popular and respected and you know at least one mark of that is in the Olympics. Although there are other marks of respect certainly but a huge Evolution that I've observed is when I was skateboarding as a 14 year old and you know into my clothes to my twenties and then took some time off for sure hardly any girls, hardly any women. There were a few like Cara Beth Burnside.
They got teased ridiculed. It
was hard on them, super hard. Yeah, super hard now largely through Instagram
but some other channels as well. You can see this young girl Reese on vert skateboarding better than a lot of grown men who have been skateboarding for decades. I mean and then there are a number of other ones in the in Street skateboarding and also taking really hard slams like you know so this this is it.
Sweet revision of the recent history of skateboarding, so, thoughts on that. And on reefs and there are few others was, it is it Lizzie who took a really bad fall? That was filmed for up there. Knock off her femur. Yeah, yeah, these are tough ladies. Yeah, I'm
enjoying it. And for coming back, is he Lizzy? Did the loop. She did the full 360 Loop, first woman to ever do it.
So what do you think changed like that? Paved the way.
Is it just, you know, a critical mass of females doing it, is it that, you know, Sky Brown? You know you for
sure for sure there were there were the Pioneers people like care about Burnside and so many others. Um, Patty Hoffman was one of the one of the first verse caters to who were they planted the seed? And, and then there were other women that took inspiration like, oh girls can do this even though
They're largely outnumbered and they get hassled for sure. And then through the street era people like Elissa steamer who had the way of her legit Street skating, but then through the years, it started to become more common, more accepted, which is dumb to say, because she's always been a, should have always been accepted. But the thing that really tipped the scale was when everything was
Leading up to the Olympics, there had to be equal divisions in equal disciplines for men and women and suddenly there was no question of should. We have a, should we have a women's event? Like, no, we have to have a movement because that's how we, that's the road to qualifying, for this. The Olympic stage and vans Park series to their credit. They were holding events simultaneously. Not that we're Olympic qualifiers, but just their own and they said these events are equal across the board.
Will prize money, equal attention. And mean it was just like that was just a matter of fact and that shifted a lot. It really did. Now if you go to a skate park you see plenty of them in there. Yeah it's awesome with like literal women like moms you know, there's there are older women that are learning how to skate. It's awesome. Not that it matters so much, but does anyone claim to be the first female do 540 on vert? Is that sort of?
Unknown ability, Lindsay Adams.
Fantastic. And she did that'll tell you how she did that. She was trying it. So she's trying to she's trying to make twist. She's married to Travis Pastrana. It's like the, you know, it's like the illipe action sports couple and she was trying them. She was, she was getting pretty close and then we did a big exhibition in Paris, at the Grand Palais on behalf of quicksilver it
Was a huge event. They put a half pipe up and we did this giant show there. Thousands of people there and it was very much unspoken but expected that I was going to do a 900 at this event. I think it was I want to say it was 2010. Maybe and our know like 2009 and
and and they organized a kind of like, okay, so we're gonna do this and then, you know, at some point
You do a 900 and I was like, I can't guarantee that ever, like, every time I've ever made it. It's been pretty spontaneous. I, you know, I've set out to do it and not have come up short. I can't guarantee it. I'll try, I'll try.
And they are like, yeah. Okay. And so I knew the whole time there were skating as low gear one's expecting those. So I kind of went through the motions of doing my exhibition tricks. You know, playing the hits and then started trying on hundreds. And at the same time, Lindsay started trying 540s because she was feeling that energy and so it was this sort of not battle, but definitely. We are, we were trading hits. It was like, all right. There goes Johnny, the no, you missed it, and you.
Has Lindsey. Oh, she missed it and then I
She almost made one like was riding down, you know? And and then fell at the flat bottom, it was like oh and then I made 900 and that was kind of the showstopper because like that's the expected and everyone's going crazy and whatever people are coming down off the ramp knees sliding down and we're saying goodbye to the crowd and I look up and Lindsay puts her tail out there. Still people standing on the ramp
As you put your tail on, I was like I think Lindsay wants to try it again. Here we go. I'm on the mic now. She made it love it. She stole the show. Like without question. It was huge. You can look it up on YouTube by gets there Lindsay. Adam's first first, 540, it was awesome. And then she made it, and we all grabbed her and put her on her shoulders. That is awesome. It was pretty cool. That is awesome because these things are like the four-minute mile as
As a barrier that people break that barrier and then other people break that barrier. It's, I mean, I watched enough of skateboarding, recent years. See, you know, like the sky Brown thing I would, she's phenomenal. And actually saw her family out to dinner here in Los Angeles and with her brother, and her folks are really gracious, really nice. And there again, you know, parents going to the skate park. We were after all, she's couldn't drive herself. I think she's got at that time. She was probably nine, you know, only one of the biggest shifts to is that
Parents encourage their kids to skate. Now, could you imagine that when we are young?
Never know. There were so many factors telling us not to, it's just made us want to do it more. Sure. But
now kids are like, parents are pushing them into it. Get out there, learn tricks. It's like, wait, that's not what we're supposed to be doing, but it's cool that I think it, I think with the, the really cool factor of all that is, there are definitely people our age. I'm grouping you into my age. Category, 47. All right. Plus not but but that have
Kids and skateboarding was such a special time in our life and then their rediscovering it through their kids and their skating together. And I think that's just so amazing.
That someone of our age would be like, you know what, I used to do that, you're into that. Like let's go and then you can show your kid. How to a sweeper I can probably do that. I don't have kids yet. But when I do, I'll show I intend on being healthy enough and yeah, to do a sweeper people can look up. Sweeper, we don't have to explain it for him, but little, a background or a sweeper. Yep. Oh yeah. Because they won't, they wouldn't think to do it. No. And there are doing all these difficult flip tricks. And that's not mine, it's not my scene. Yeah. What's your go-to on a game of skate? If you're
I really like take out the younger
generation. I can do Impossibles pretty, pretty regularly, on transition consistently. I knew my own flat.
So this is where basically scrape the back of the, it's an ollie, really but it wraps around the back
foot or drag over your foot. Yeah, that's kind of my, my sneak attack on games of skate.
Does Rodney Mullen, get credit for that trick stole. Yes, that's, yeah. It's a runny but you still in touch with Rodney.
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. He's
somebody that
Certainly deserves, it deserves mention in the pioneering of tricks. I think of
He's The Godfather of modern skateboard.
I think of Rodney. You and Mark Gonzales gonz. That's like, the, they're guys that I'm honored. Drove the progression in different, partially overlapping directions. That set the template for us, I learned fingertips because Rodney like, the first trick you saw me. Do I learned that? Because I saw Rodney, do it on the ground and I thought, well, I can't do it on the ground, but I have plenty of time in the
To do it.
It's awesome. It's awesome. That Stacy put you guys together, we mentioned Bones Brigade, but we didn't really talk about the architecture of it from the perspective of skateboard progression but it was kind of like any good band. It seemed like there was really good chemistry. Yeah, interpersonally. But also that there were each person had something unique, you skated way you did Mike's gay the way he did Stevie the way he did and you know Rodney and you know and we respected each other but we also fed off each other.
Tommy Guerrero. Yep. Right because growing up in the Bay Area like, yeah, in fact, Tommy skating the hills of San Francisco in those videos. Makes it look easy. Yeah, but those Hills are, are rough. They're dangerous. And they have real life obstacles like moving bosses, you'll notice he wasn't stopping at stop signs, so it's fantastic. We could reminisce about all these angles but the point being that spending time with people who do similar things or the same thing, but do it. Differently is one of the best ways to progress.
Is this why I routinely fly to Texas and hang out with Peter. T another podcast. Earlex Friedman just because they do things differently than I do. Where do you draw sort of peripheral inspiration from now? They I know you see. Jimmy welcomes that your rent quite a lot, the Phenom, Jimmy Wilkins, it's kind of eerie how good that kid is. What, who else are you spend time with besides Reese? And one of the reasons I asked this is that skateboarding is unique among many sports in that a given session a gathering.
To skateboard will include an enormous, Reviving old man and ten-year-old girls. Exactly. Yes, which is it, which is incredible. You don't think about soccer, you know, a serious game of soccer between professional soccer and also it's not even that that we're skating together is that we are communicating and influencing each other. I mean that is like the last conversation I have with Reese was she's talking about like a, you going to try to do five 40s and I go yeah, I'm kind of working on it. She goes well, I think because she saw me,
Hi. When she goes, I think you need to pull out a little more and she was right. And she's how old again, Stan. And I didn't even consider that because I'm just back in my mode and I'm not taking into consideration that I don't have the snap that I had before I got hurt and she was, I mean, that was one key to me, making it.
And, you know, did that, but it, but to me, that's just, that's representative skateboarding, and the inclusivity of it, in the diversity of it. Where, it's me, I'm 55. There's 30 year old Pros that are at the top of the game. There are 17 year-old up-and-comers men. Women ten-year-old girl, that is doing tricks that we've never even thought of or want to do.
and it's all part of the
The whole mix.
That's really beautiful. Want to ask you about memorabilia, not a topic that I think about much, but I think in a prior conversation of ours, you mentioned something about this. So, you know, there are skateboard
collectors.
There are people that collect stickers skateboards. There's a whole market and world for this. And in addition to people, wanting selfies with you, when they see you, I imagine there's a long history and
New tradition of people taking a pen, putting your hand and saying, can you sign this? Right? Because you are in this very small, but very clearly esteem group of people where your signature increases the value of things. So how does that work? And how does that feel? Like if a skateboarder who, you know, there are The Tell-Tale signs of who is and who isn't right? If they walk up to you and they're like hey will you sign this? Do you feel
good about signing it or is that something that you refrain from and and if somebody's just merely a collector a traitor and they're trying to build their portfolio. So to speak. You can probably also sense that I'm not trying to put you in the hot seat here.
Well, to answer your question through the years, I was always open to that and I'm happy to especially when people are skaters are skate fans and whatnot in the last
Three years. There has been this new element of resellers of people that just go by signature stuff. They have nothing to do with skating. They don't care about skateboarding at all. They just want to get my signature on an item and sell it and they usually do it on eBay or through their own channels. That's fine at some point like a few years ago I respected the hustle. These guys are they knew that I was going to be at this event? Okay, they're outside waiting. They've been waiting for hours. I'll sign a couple things.
But in recent months, even they have figured out how to get my flight info, like some hacked into my, my actual Airline accounts, some have sources at certain airports that get the manifests and they sell the information. I found all this out because I've actually held a couple of them. Accountable, because I said, look, I'm not going to sign this. Until you tell me how you knew I was going to be here. I have no business here. I'm here to visit family. No one knows I'm coming here. Oh, well, we
So a friend said, they saw you at the Detroit airport. Like no, they didn't. They wouldn't know where I'm going to. Anyway, of course, I saw it on Twitter. You didn't see it on Twitter. I'm on Twitter. Tell me the truth. There's a guy from TMZ and against flight info and he sells it to us.
Okay, thank you. But that has increased to a point where it's not, it's not sustainable. I can't, I can't, please everyone. The last time I flew out of Chicago, there were about 15 people. One guy had a shopping cart full of skateboards and they all they all bum-rushed me at security before I went through security, thinking that I'm going to sign stuff like you guys, I can't, I can't do the I'm not miss my flight and I can't
Delineate, who like, I'm sorry, you guys have like, sabotage yourselves. I don't know what to say. And then I went through security and there were four days waiting at the gate, they had bought tickets airline tickets so that it could be past security that they airline tickets. They're not going to use to chase this. So, I mean, when people want My Autograph, but it's weird and it's intrusive and it's kind of creepy.
Yeah. Just tell them that a neuroscientist told you that you got to get that slob are right? And if you sign too many autographs that you're never going to get
back to get it back. You're not going to have to tuck me in not just knocking, be Do The Flap in the invert, you're just not going to get any worse. It is, it's just a really weird weird popped up and other than that. And so the tricky part is when there is a public thing or a public exhibition or whatever to try to figure out who is the true scale.
Fans and who aren't usually they're pretty identifiable, but it, it just, it has ruined the experience for people who truly are the grew up skating.
Well, thanks for sharing that and we won't tell everyone what The Tell-Tale signs are so that these people don't exploit them the skateboarders. The real fans will know, they won't have to worry about whether or not they represent accurately because the you just will on the positive side. Something I've been wanting to learn more.
About from you is your philanthropic efforts. I think Kevin Rose who's in the tech. Sector was the first to mention to me that you have you guys have done some philanthropy together and maybe you've done so much Jim Thibault as well. The great Jim
Thibault. Yeah. Well both both Jim and Kevin were board members. Jim is the current board member of the skipper project will tell us about the skateboard project. It's my night.
Prophet and we try to develop public skate parks and there are certain underserved areas but more so by by supporting the community and giving them the resources to do so. So groups that are trying to get skate parks in the area, we are the resource center for them, we'll give them advice. We give them funding will give them our stamp of approval and that can go a long way and to date we've helped to fund over almost 1,000 skateparks now and 7:00 or 8:00.
Our, which are open. I miss my proudest work for sure. And it's because I never, I never took for granted the fact that I grew up near a skate park and that was my home away from home, that was more. I found my sense of community. My sense of identity, my my crew and so many kids choose to skateboard but have no support in doing. So and so those skate parks are a Lifeline.
Yeah, I can attest. They they absolutely save lives.
There's no question. Where can people find out more about your foundation? We can provide a link. But what is art dot org? It's a, where does the funding for these Parks actually come from?
It comes from donations from supporters, it comes from fundraisers, some corporate, sometimes funding is funneled through us for a specific regions. Like the we have a built to play a project that's in Michigan, and New York, and that's funded by the Ralph C Wilson jr. Foundation,
So they they give us the funding and then we have to give it to that area, but but it's easy because there's plenty of projects, and now there's an abundance of skate parks in those
areas. Love it. Thank you for doing that for organizing around.
That is and I get to get more places to skate.
I'm curious. What's in the immediate Horizon, right? These days you probably have the option to say yes to things and no to things, you know, you have a family, you have your skateboard career. Where do you place your priorities? In terms of how to carve up your day or your week? I mean, what would you like to make sure that you do or as much of the hours of your waking day? For the next? Let's just say five years because and if you want to extend the
That out you
can bum. Well I want to be available to my kids first and foremost and we still have one at home for the next four years. So I will make sure that I'm available to her and
in terms of career I never had great aspirations. Like I never thought these are the this is what I want to accomplish. It was always just very
More, you know, trick specific oriented. So it's always like I want to try this and this and this I would like to continue skating. I don't know if I'll be able to skate at the level, I'm skating right now in five years, but I know that I'll still be on the ramp. I may not be doing it in public. Trying to advocate for public skate parks doing more with the foundation and whatever. I think, I think the way I prioritize My Time is what will resonate the farthest and have the best impact on skateboarding and
General. I do feel that I've come to a point where, yes, I'm some unofficial ambassador to skateboarding, and I want to represent it. Well, I want, I want to
be fair in that skateboarding is all kinds of different things. It's not just X Games or Olympics, or whatnot. It's it represents a true culture. And I want to project that as much as I can. And make sure that people understand that that's also positive, and
I mean, it really everything that I'm doing now is just kind of fun. I got it for the, I would say, in the last five to ten years is the first time. I've truly enjoyed what skateboarding has provided me in terms of opportunity and what it brings to me. And, and what it means to my family, like, I have a much better appreciation understanding for it and these days, it's just like, everything's kind of just gravy. It's just so fun. I can't believe I could still do it.
It's crazy. I'm 55 years old and I truly ride my skateboard as a career, like that's nuts and I won't have it any other way.
Well, it certainly is earned and I just want to say thank you for a number of things. First of all, thank you for going to the skate park. Thank you for picking this trajectory. Thank you for inspiring me. And so many other young people and old people older people over.
So many decades. Now, both with what you did on a skateboard and off the skateboard and including your resilience, and determination to push and continue to progress to the point where you were badly injured. And then to push through that come back at least match what you did previously. And I would wager that you will exceed your prior skill level going forward. So I want to thank you for your resilience. I know, it comes from an intrinsic Drive. Your Love of skateboarding. It just absolutely
He comes through iShare in some of that, of course, having grown up in it, but not nearly as much as you. But also, just your willingness to stretch out into these different areas, like the video game thing or talk about X Games, the Olympics. Because that did allow for a lot of growth and lateral movement of skateboarding. And at the same time, just, as you said to bring it right back to the fact that skateboarding isn't one thing, it is not like other sports, its own Sport and its own lifestyle, its own thing.
NG and we do consider you the Ambassador for skateboarding and I speak for many people. And I say that we're very grateful that you are, because you bring that that shrewdness and that Prudence to it. But also that get after it, punk rock Spirit and the goodness that your parents, you know, instilled in you clearly comes through everything from the philanthropy and onward. So I can't say enough positive things and express enough gratitude for your what you've done. And for your time here, your legacy and skateboarding but also just in the Game of Life.
Is clearly cemented. So thank
you. Oh, thank you. Hey, I appreciate that. The ethos of skateboarding shines through on your show and just your crew here. Clearly a lot of them come from the skateboard world so you're still supporting it whether you know it or not.
Thanks so much and hopefully you'll come back and we'll do it
again. All right. Sounds good.
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