This is the grounded podcast episode 2 with Dean Lister and me Jocko willick.
Dean list Chagall,
okay? A couple questions to talk about today, and this is something I think will help people. Not just necessarily in the kind of confines of the subject matter that we normally talk about, which is the Jiu-Jitsu / fight world, but also just in everything. So people are going into a stressful environment. IE a competition of fight, a match, something like that.
And different people. Well, like, okay. So people get nervous, people, get the butterflies. Yeah, and how do you handle that? And I know you have coached and trained all kinds of, you know, the best in the world world champions.
What have you seen
from your experience on how to handle those things nerves? Is that the is that the proper work nerves knows? How to handle nerves? How to handle adrenaline, how to handle.
Expectation, right. Expectation of what's about to happen or no? No, I think the word is anticipation. Right? The anticipation is worse than
the actual event. Yeah. Yeah.
So what have you seen? What can you talk about? How can you help us?
Well, that's that's when the most common questions I get asked, for sure. Absolutely. First of all, everyone is definitely different. So it's not like one thing is going to be the secret for everyone. I was coaching her.
I was friends with a Mirko Cro, Cop filipowicz and Croatia before fights. He actually will just play poker with Rawls creation, friends and just he'll be laughing until it's time to put the gloves on and warm up. And if I'm not mistaken, he's also after a fight went back and play poker no longer. He's just, he's just not, that's his how he he relaxes. So
I've called this. I've
caught myself doing this to everyone. Does this before competition. You start replaying.
In your mind, everything that's going to happen. What if the guy does this all of this and then I'll do a backflip and then I'll kick his leg and I'll get you think of these crazy things and your heart starts racing. Are you start thinking?
So you mean that in a negative way? Yeah, you get instead of visualizing like because you know, some
people say I visualize the entire fight I walked in and I did the walk out. I walked down the ramp. I got into the cage. The fight went exactly.
I'd already one in my mind a thousand times. This is different. What you're talking about. This isn't visualization of
Activity, it's visualization of bad things have this is not you. Either way. It's an
uncontrolled form of meditation is not even meditation is daydreaming and it's almost that feeling when you're in a car and you almost get in an accident and you this Sean, you feel tired afterwards or adrenal and just went coursing through your veins and now it just got depleted and now you're tired. So if this is not controlled, if this is just Reckless Meandering thoughts,
Yeah, it's not good for your energy. And this happens to almost everyone. That's why some days you're focused on days. You're not Mike Tyson had a great. It's on YouTube, you talks about, you know, mental games before fight and talks about, you know, before his fight. He's not nervous. He said it's wrong. It's wrong. He said, he's, he's afraid of this man. It was going to hurt him and hold his whole time training mean being
not nervous. Not nervous is wrong. Is that what?
You
said, sir, you he's saying you should be
nervous.
Everyone's going to show
their amount of nervous is
different. Everyone's going to be a little, there are more than less nervous people. This true, what I mean, is he admitted? It's he those words were wrong. He was nervous before fights, but the closer he got to the ring the less nervous. He was as soon as he got in the ring. He was a God and no one could touch him. Just this man wants to hurt me. I'm Gonna Hurt Him First, and I'm paraphrasing of course, but he put it very good words. As far as
You know, he's dreamed of this guy, beating him before he dreamed of it. He doesn't want that happen and he's putting the gloves on. He's piercing the through the leather, with his knuckles, and he's walking into the arena, but the closer he gets the more and more confident, he gets, that's, that's a form of controlled, visualization meditation. Let's say that's controlled, though. He's not Meandering. Just getting excited for no reason. Also, the more you can beat the better, you'll be able to relax. So there's different ways, everyone relaxes.
Some people don't even relax at all. When I was young member. Jacque are used to slap me in the face three or four times before my fights. And now recently I'm like a joke. I don't need to get some more because I'm a little older now. So the younger people want to enter and there's yep, the older people want to calm this. I was down, everyone's just a little bit different. There's no such thing as someone who is exactly the same as someone else.
I noticed that's one thing I like about wrestling is when I see the kids wrestle, my own kids, like you're going to go and wrestle, they have a limit. I don't know if it's a live in anyone else but in California, I don't know if it was like this when you were a kid, but you can only Russell five times in a day. Hmm. So if you wrestled five times, you're done for that day, but that means you don't a two-day tournament. You'll get ten matches in two days. And that's that's awesome. It's the same with jiu-jitsu, you know you if you go out you compete you're going to compete a lot, you know, you
Compete a lot. You can do five matches. In one day. You can do eight matches and one day. What's the most matches you've ever had? In one day for grappling because bro, you used to go up. Do your weight class 1? Whatever 175 and then you'd compete an absolute. You'd have like ten matches. Yeah, you know day
probably 10 is a is probably
About the max. I don't think
now part of them. I can't give you credit for because you just submit people like fast. There are good days, you know, do you never look nervous going into a grappling match that I'm
seeing?
I don't know. I don't know where I'm you look nervous. Going into a fight. Yeah,
you are so much more comfortable grappling. Then you were going into MMA
fights. Yeah. Yeah. Was mean, and
part of it is because the obvious, you'd grappled thousands and thousands of matches. I mean, even before I even met you, you would have done a high school wrestling career, you dunce, ombo career and now we were into, you know, our Jiu-Jitsu career, your Jiu-Jitsu career, so you already had taught you would never
Ever, you look like when you talk about Cro Cop playing poker. Like that's what you like. You wouldn't be walking around getting hyper anything like that. You just walk out on the mat like a damn. This is like a damn zombie /. Robot that was about to start murdering
people with no feelings under that. We actually think this one of your bet, your favorite stories involving myself, but there was a guy. His last name was silver silver, but that's like saying Smith. Yeah, such a common last name you, but as many good Fighters with last name, syllable. Yeah.
Early and it was in the finals. I'd beat three, guys. He beat three guys. I mean, he submitted to he was good and he was a very hyper, you slapped a matte. Look at you stare, you down the eyes, and very emotional for a very emotional time Grappler and I was just calm. Yeah. I remember that. You know, when someone is that hyper and their emotional and they feed off the reaction in your face. That's why Fedor. I think his stare down is pretty good, because if you look at him and staring,
Down. It doesn't work. And when you see on his face that he doesn't really care what you're doing. The that kind of like, makes you feel insecure or something. Yeah, I don't know. So
well, that was like, when Holly Holm fought against Rodney Rodney Rhonda. Yeah.
Remember, Rhonda was always angry and
all hype and everything. She was going all crazy during the stair Downs during the weigh-ins and Holly was just looking at her like, whatever and same with Joanna
versus Thug Rose and their first matchup and Joanna's getting all crazy. And
Roses looking at her. Just, no emotion whatsoever. And then went out and see, but see, I don't think so. I think it would
have been different results if either or both of those occasions, the calm person was not calm back. Then you would have played into the original game. Yeah, because that, that feedback would have been received in that. We're playing that emotional game. Now, if you don't. It's so there we go. That's a different way to play the mental game and this this situation
So everyone's a little different, some Fighters have that, for instance, before it may fight. Ask my guys. You know. Hey, do you really like looking to do is in the eyes? Do you really want to do that? And we'll no, no, okay, fine because if that's not their personality, just look where the regular chest, don't play the I game because we play it and look away. You lost the game there. But if you want to play that game, Don't Look Away now, you know, you play the game, you play the game or don't put the game. So everyone is just different. There's no such thing as one guy exactly the same as may be similar, but in terms of relaxation,
Seeing or taking the pressure off. Everyone's a little bit different. There's no such thing as the same, my opinion.
So you so you got Cro Cop on the one end of the spectrum and he's like a guy that's cold as ice. And part of the reason is because he'd fought so many times, you know, I talked about you being in grappling matches and being totally mellow Cro Cop. Had so many fights as a striker that you think he for him walking into the cage. He's not really.
Nervous about anything cause he's been punched plenty of times and it's not that big of a deal
on the other under the skill. We have we had one fighter which we know, you know him professional fighter now and has fought in the UFC, great friend of ours. His first fight he actually said he started crying and said, I don't want to be here and I said calm down, calm down. He was no idea. That guy's too tough and used crying. He's this is a big man that
Crying was his, I never seen him cry and this is like an awkward moment because he's about he supposed to go out and fight and everyone sitting around waiting for him. He's I want to leave and I said, no, you're not going to leave. Basically. I had to kind of say no, you're not doing that. You're going to fight so he said, okay. Oh my God. I don't know. I'm doing any went out there and finish the guy in the first round. So he actually need a little outside. Help to relax, but he actually won. So the thing is that guy couldn't play poker that day at that moment. He would have lost every hand. Okay.
So maybe it's that experience. Probably it is as definitely something involving personality as well, because cro cops a little bit. He's got those serial killer is a little bit. I don't know. He's got that little bit of Detachment in his. Yeah. I know him personally. He's a good friend of mine. But he has that Detachment in his,
this whole crew. Like, I remember watching them play poker, like everyone is pacing, and everyone's doing all whatever their pre-flight nerves are going. And he's sitting with all them big gnarly looking.
They're just sitting around. The other guys are like smoking and drinking. Yeah, whatever. And he's playing poker with him. He made me go to
battle. Yep. Like that. He can detach himself. And so maybe that's a good way to word to use emotional versus Detachment. Maybe they can make it fall in line there somewhere as far as comparison, but some Fighters are very emotional. Some Fighters find it easier to detach but is always going to be as long as we are human being and
We think outside of this room like what can happen and people have asked me like how do you know you're going to win? I say, well, actually I never knew I was in a win. That sounds weird. Am I insecure? No, no. No,
it's not like I'm doubting myself.
I just don't, I can't read the future. I can't read the future. And one time is before. I think it was before I fight you're done. You're out there who was from Bulgaria. Very good fighter. I fought in the UFC and you said something like you're in the locker room with me. Hey Dean, what's wrong? You don't look very well. You don't look very well.
Laxed I'm paraphrasing. I don't know. You said and I went well, you know my opponent. He's a real good kick boxer. He's a really good wrestler. And and I was thinking he's going to something like him, hit me with an e in the head when I grabbed him and he went. Yeah, you know, well in Iraq and I was like God damn it. Like I like already and your whole story was you know, we're going on a mission, we know where we're going, but we don't know what's gonna happen, but we're going to this this building to take it down or whatever we know.
We're looking for, we know the route. We're going. We're pretty sure it's, it's the right way to go. But sometimes you get blown up, you get blown up. Sometimes it's like I felt like kind of like a pansy and the moment because I'm just going to fight a guy. I'm not gonna get killed, but it put things in perspective because your point was, you're going out to do the job. Anyways, doesn't matter. If you get hit with any doesn't matter, you're doing it anyways, so why why doubt that? I already know what I'm going to do. So as far as knowing no one can predict the future. I guess that's another way of saying
What you said to me that fight, they can't predict the future, but we know we're here to fight. We know we're here to walk out when we know our true self put ourselves in this situation to better ourselves and to get more experience. So, take some comfort in that thought and just go out and just live the match live, your mom. Well,
that's good point. If you if your attitude is hey, I'm here to learn and I'm going to try and win of course, but if I don't win then cool, I'm going to learn something about myself.
And that's fine. That's part of the reality of it. Will you do you get nervous before grappling matches?
Nervous that. Yeah,
it's more excitement. It's
you know when my one of my fights my mom and my sister were there which is like the only time that ever happened.
That was a
fight that was King of the cage. It was against
Oh my goodness. Forget who was in ways. We I wanted to fight without getting punched. So it was it was a good fight for me to have Heaven fit right in my sister my mom, but I was just I couldn't get over the fact that they're there. Now my dad watching me, get hit. It's not so bad. So that was a just an example of something. I didn't want to replicate for the next fight. So it depends on certain things. If I find know, I've trained hard I feel less nervous. I don't see nerves is like the
Word you say, I feel alive? I feel in the moment talking about what, what, what, what
scares the difference between a grappling and a fight? Like, I get for a ficus. I've seen, you, you are more nervous for fight and you know why I'm nervous for fight because there's a higher percentage of chance, right? There's a chance. I mean, in my opinion, there's a in a fight in an MMA fight. There's a more chance plays into
it. There's many more uncontrolled
factors more, uncontrollable.
If a garden you could get, you could get caught with a punch and boom, you're done right? That that could happen. There's a whatever percentage you want to call that. There's a 12% chance of that happening. A seven percent whatever percent you want to call it. That is 0% in a in a grappling match. Its 0% that you're going to get caught with a punch and knocked out. That's not going to happen in grappling match. You you're not going to call it with Annie. You're not going to get you're not going to get caught with a head butt and get well, I guess you could call it that but and get cut. So anyways, there's just a higher percentage of chance. There's also
There's also some fine finality to getting knocked out, right? Yeah, if you get caught in a submission like you have theirs, it's not fun. It's not over until you tap out and for you.
That must be pretty good because you are very good at escaping submission will call him submission attempts. I mean, you have been, you have had John J, Ribeiro, arguably one of the greatest, you know, world champions ever. He had you in a freaking arm lock and you got out of it. I mean, you've been in, you've been in omoplata as you've been in heel hooks, you've been in chokes, you've been in, you've been in paid upon. Oh, who at the time was just undefeated Beast. No one was even freaking scoring on him.
That giant you were in his arm, triangle for 45 min 5 minutes, right? And so, so it's like, you have a power to get out. So, I'm just saying, maybe that's why your nerves for grappling or so calm. Because you didn't even feel a
threat.
I don't know. I actually, I don't know why I do this or maybe why I had the ability to do this. But when I feel like I'm supposed to be hurt or damaged, or I am injured or something. I feel like I get it, simplifies things in my mind, for some reason. So the goso a great fighter in kakariko had me an arm Guillotine for. And he had the best guilty in the world is ranked as the best guilty in the world, and he had me for 30.
It's there and I was in it and I could hear the crowd screaming, and they got silent, because he's choking me in that bit. My ear. I can't even hear my ear. They started Muffler. Now he's choking me,
but I thought about it, like wait, choking. You mean, you were starting to lose Consciousness or just the squeeze of the arm was blocking up. The side. Arm was blocking God sound because you had an elbow in. Would you have it the
I blocked his hip with my elbow. Gasp? I didn't get under my armpit that helped me a lot but it's still. I think most would adapt to it, still sucks.
Yeah, and I remember
being
in it thinking I remember before the match saying saying myself. Oh, you know, 18 be careful about his leg locks 18, be careful of his Guillotine. I was like, yeah, we give said be
careful. I'm not a Lackey bucks. Is all. People told me that they say he has the best player walks in Brazil.
Who knows if he did but he's ranked as a, most feared guilty in the world at that time. And so I was thinking yeah, be careful of and then I thought wait a second, why be careful of it like, why not? Just why not Escape it, you know, I'm not saying I didn't let him put it on me.
But as soon as I see that he was going for this. I was like, what kind of like we're committed. It's going to happen. I want to see if I can escape this and that's a different, a different way of, I'm not nervous. Now. I'm excited to want to escape us
on. You played a little mind game on yourself. Yeah, consciously or unconsciously. Did you play that mind game on yourself looking back on it? It's clear that, that
relaxed you. Yeah, it did.
Remember. Remember when
I faced the Jamal Patterson from New York and my knee was hurt really bad. Yeah.
And if you won't do your knee because that it was a hematoma. You saw a funny, bad me swelled up, like, was bad. So I put two knee pads on it and I was thinking like, okay don't put your knee on the ground process like, you know, scoop just forget about it. It just just take them to it, made it. So simple in my, I don't know why I made things. So simple. I'm not seeing it was easier made things. So simple and mind and then he went for my need to, he attacked your day. And and I was, it was kind of like it. Woke me up. It woke me up like, like, you know, come on, you can't escape this.
Then of, that will be up for some reason. I don't know. Why doesn't make sense to me, completely. So it's probably subconscious, you know, mmm. And then what about over
time? So, when you were, when we were 19, You and Your 19 we first started training and then compared to, you know, when you were 30, 20 years later when you're 39, or for the 17 years later. Did, your did your nerves calm down over time? What are they worse when they were sort of time when I don't remember? What?
I wasn't with you at your first
ADCC, in
Brazil. Were you nervous for any of those matches? Will you nervous for the fruit? Because you lost? Yeah, the first day in your weight class you lost.
Were you nervous for those matches than you? Didn't think you weren't nervous anymore. When you went to the
absolute. I think I put it in. Good words right now on my head. I've done better feeling when I didn't have the precious. Yeah, it much to lose. So so I'm just people knew who I was, it wasn't I wasn't unknown, but I was not supposed to even be in the absolute division. It's like a screw it. I just think to myself, why not just go out there and just just be a nuisance to my opponents.
New spear pain in the ass is just a white list of come on, man. That cockeyed, you know, just be a pain in the ass to everyone and then have fun doing it and actually motivate myself. And so, every time I was in trouble, I was like, What if I escape this is that that simple wasn't, I need to win, or I'm in trouble. It's like, wouldn't it be cool? That's what was, wouldn't it be cool. If I skip this? Wouldn't that be pretty cool. That's what I said to myself because I was need chokes and I thought to myself, wouldn't it be cool? And yes, it was.
Cool when I escaped them, so, you know, and then when at the finals of kakariko, I mean that move no one was doing 40 50 know and I did it and you can see on my opponents eyes. He doesn't know what's going on Jim and I got him in so imagine I did not I'm not the first person in history to use that position. There's no way of thousands of years. People have done it before. I've even seen a picture of an omoplata that's like 2,000 years old. She is standing him Fanta. So these are, these are old things, of course.
One is done it, but no one taught that to me and it worked and I want Abu Dhabi. So when I got relaxed or I could try things out and actually have fun. It was incredible.
That's like, when you watch out like a basketball game, and I think it's basketball is a good example, because the scoring is so rapid. But if someone gets goes up by four, five, six, seven points. All of a sudden they take a little bit more risk that a little bit more confident. They have less pressure and then they go. All of a sudden they go from being up four points to being
up night like
In a very short period of time, because the or soccer is another good one, even though it's the opposite end of the spectrum, once a team gets, you know, 220, they're going to win. And so now they can like take more chances and they put even more pressure on the goal. So that's similar to what you're saying on yourself. You put less pressure on yourself or there actually is less pressure like in the in your first in 2003 you already lost your weight division. Okay. So, okay. You're out. You're a, you're a loser. Whatever. Yeah.
Yeah,
and then all of a sudden, okay, you're gonna go in there. Hey doesn't really matter. You've already competing your way division. Just going to go out. Have fun do your best and then when you do that when you kind of I don't want to say this to create when you throw
caution to the
wind and you start taking chances and you start letting your game just go that is a very positive thing, you know, and then
it was they actually interviewed Josh Barnett after I lost to him I said,
Is it true that? Let's try them and submit in 17 years. And you said, yeah, it's true. Last time Lister was submitted was during the Clinton Administration. I said that s, that was kind of funny. You said like that. But here's what happened. There's other factors as well. Of course, as well as upon it being an incredible athlete. But I remember now, looking back that day, the day before the day before he, you know, you haven't missed it in 17 years. That was the main thing that was on my mind. I had something to lose subconsciously.
So I was cautious to keep that, so I realize now, you know, I came in instead of going. Hey, screw it. I'm going to and you know, what you said about the team in basketball that gets up and awesome. But also took it out. You get the team that gets up by 20 points and football, and the coach goes. Hey, don't blow
it. We're up by 20 points. Don't screw up. And the other teams like, hey,
let's, when 4220 now, right? So, it depends on, if that's the
opposite mentality that people that are down by 20. They start taking
A huge chance and they got nothing to lose. They might as well go for it and boom. They are the ones that they're exactly. Yeah. That the Barnett thing and like you said, he's an unbelievable competitor, but I don't think you should have done that competition and I'm the one that trains with you, but you had injuries going into it. Like that's the worst.
Bro, I was beating you up going into that competition and I should have not let you. I mean, we were only true, we couldn't train very often because you were injured, when we were training. I was beating up which I cannot normally do and I should have just been like, hey, don't do this because you're not ready. You know, that's one of those things I should have. Never looking back on it. That's just not it's not a good way to go, you know.
Yeah, but but you know, it has happened where
I'm not doing well and then I'll be a good competition.
Oh, there's a difference. I think there's a difference between what we're talking about. I'm you're talking about, you've trained, and then you get sick at the last minute, or the day of, oh, you have an injury the day of, but you're trained in your prepared and you can overcome that. You are in a situation on that one, where you weren't, you weren't able to train, to prepare for it. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so look man, I've trained you for so many different things.
Things. And sometimes I might have a good time beating you up a little bit at the at the 12-week, Mark, without
you two, you know of the 12-week
mark of a training camp where you're just starting out by the end of it in the good when you're ready. I can't. What I need is to bring three more other guys. Three other guys in with me. I need to bring three other guys in with me so that I can call, so I can do a tag team after four minutes, when you're like, abusing me. Like I'm a freakin child.
And I can tag someone out and they can come in fresh and get you. That's the way it's supposed to be and that camp it wasn't like that. And as a matter of fact, now that I think about this whole story it was a 20-minute match. Yeah, and I had done a couple days where I put fresh guys on you like I did like a tag team thing and you just got beat down because you just, you know, you were injured. You were sick. You are hurt and you hadn't been training. And so you got a beat down and then three days later.
It was like a Saturday. And you said, let's just go. You and me 20 minutes. And I said in my mind, I was like, damn it. He's going to beat me up and then you didn't beat me up and I realized I was like this is never had that actually had never happened before. And so that's when I knew, you know, what I that's what I should have said, Dean this is not the right time. You you should wait, you should recover. He's trained hard for six months and do a match then. So I take that one as definitely my fault and
And and I also blame Josh Barnett for being awesome. No, no, he's a beast. Totally and I blame Josh, you know, it's cool to Mana, uh, this stuff that Josh did symbolically to tie back to his roots, to to the, to the Japanese wrestling. And I thought that was cool too. So Props to Josh, but you know,
what, in that matter. Well, okay. I'm trying to put this in. Good words.
In my life, when I've done. Well, I've won and lost because what primarily usually at one, but off of different reasons. I've won matches. But being tougher, one matches on being Innovative one matches off of being strong, and whatever. These are all different qualities. You need to have at the higher level, but the idea of
Making your opponent endure, your energy versus you and during the opponent's energy or Force. That's that's when I've done really. Well, is when so this match, I accepted Barnett's weight and is is aggressive movement and I just endured it. I wasn't, I wasn't responsive to it in time. And what I've done, well is when I'm making my opponent react to me. Well, so that's the willingness to engage the enemy. Yeah. I mean, I'm saying. Yeah.
No, I mean, and of course, you know, if anyone thinks
I'm sitting here saying Josh isn't like an unbelievably unbelievabl Beast of an athlete and like I love the fact that he's, you know, a submission based, you know, catch wrestling guy. He's just awesome. So but from seeing the whole thing from my perspective, it was a bummer than I. And I should have as a training partner as a coach, I should have said. Hey man, don't do this. And one thing that's very hard for me to do with you is get you to pull out of them.
Match, you know, because I would say I was thinking that maybe three weeks out. I started saying, you know what, we're not going to get there and I should have said, hey man do just stop like let's reschedule this thing and there's I think in my mind, I thought there's no way you're going to pull out of a match three weeks away. You're not going to be disrespectful to a legendary guy like Josh Barnett and not you know do the competition. So
maybe that was a little bit of a
of a lost cause will talking
about being nervous before match. There are
Certain times when it's not the time for you compete, but that's that's the rare situation. What is more common is someone making excuse not to compete because of this, or this, or this. And interesting enough is to think like, okay. I need to, I need to get in shape to compete. Okay, that makes sense. But but if that's always your excuse, I mean, at some point, you've got to compete to get it to get it going. You know, I've heard people say I
Need to, I need to get in shape to learn Jujitsu. Yeah, that's almost like someone saying. I need to learn French before I go to French class. I mean, just you got to go in and learn the movements and you get you get in shape by doing the sport there. So, competing is similar. I mean, there's always an excuse. I mean, it happens all the time. There's always a reason not to compete, but the more you don't compete, the more you find. These these mind games, that mess up your Rhythm. The longer you have, where your style is, is not benefited from your competition. Yeah. Yeah,
so that was good.
You know, those things you were saying about Mike Tyson. And I think this is an important part to think about and last last podcast. I was talking about how much humility you have in the fact that your mind is open. And I believe that the reason that your mind is open is because you're a humble person and you look at other people and you think all that maybe that person could do that better than me. And when you said about Mike Tyson, Mike Tyson would think that the person who's going to fight was going to kill him. And therefore that, what's that going to do? It's going to make you train
freaking
hard. So that's another good.
Reason to to stay humble because as you as you train and there's no I there's a there's a little
dichotomy, which
is
if you okay you have
to have a coach, right? That's going to push you but the coach can only push you to 96% The only person that can push you to 100 as you like. You can always hold back a little bit. Hey, I can make you do more freaking jump squat.
But that's not the same as you going 100% on the jump squats. You can add more repetitions, but it's not the same. So that's another part. I think that is important when it comes to humility. As you know, you respect your opponent. And and that's one thing I can say about like Josh Barnett. You knew that here's a guy that's strong. He's a Grappler. He's a wrestler. You knew that that was going to be game on. And you know, like I said you
You're training hard, but we couldn't train like we normally
would and that's my fault. No, no, you know, you know, it's it's like it's something I figured out. It took me a long time to figure out like, how are you train versus training to get in the zone? And if you're not getting the Zone, it doesn't matter already trained. It wasn't nothing is working out for you. So if you're not, if you just Trooper, if you train hard hard hard hard, it's better than it's better than no training. It's absolutely better than no training, but
Figure out a way to get in your Zone and make things work for yourself. That'll be better for, you know, so getting the zone is I think that's a good thing to aim
for. Do you think that do you don't you think though when you train that
opens up the zone for you? It opens up you
the opportunity to get in the zone? Yeah. There we
go.
I find that the more I train the bigger opportunity. I have of getting into the Zone, but
if you do,
And I think
you'll agree with this, for sure. If you train too much, you start to close the opportunity to get in the zone. Yeah, you can. You can definitely over drain and you can get to a point where it's not being beneficial to you. And I definitely have done that to you over the years, especially in the early years. We I trained you so hard. I could see you start to go down and then we you know, I'd we take time off or give you a few days off, you know, so you could like a recover
chocolate or choose a Dean. I think you needed to have
If Jack was says at you, yes. Is a real reason you do
need a off. If I tell you need a day off. You definitely need a Deena. We're not
doing a second workout today. Just, you know, really? Yeah, not just go and watch a movie. Have a good day. Yeah, so
eat some steak, dude, and some steaks. What do you think the different types of things that cause the anxiety to be present?
That's a there we go. See now, we're looking at
Okay. What is what's the reason? What's the route called? What's the root? Cause? Well, it's okay. If one's different, there's a lot of overlap here. I mean, are you afraid of damage getting hurt, punch that and that's normal. Are you afraid of being humiliated? Are you afraid of maybe realizing you're not as strong as you thought you were? Are you nervous that? But I'm saying that is realistic. I'm not talking about, for sure. Really, for sure. Is that a fear? Is that, if the fear of weakness is it, are you embarrassed? You'll look silly and
Other
people are you worried about an opponent dominating. You feeling helpless. Are you worried? You're going to be tired and out of shape and feel and feel like you're you have not been training hard. Are you worried? The truth will be exposed. Well, that's I think that's the one of the group causes the truth. The truth is ugly. Truth is ugly. The truth is ugly. The truth. Truth is ugly. Especially
if you are presenting a different facade that
Represent the actual truth. So if you're walking around acting like a tough guy and you're afraid that you in deep and deep in your heart, you think that maybe you're not as tough, as you think you are, you're afraid that, that truth is going to be exposed. That's definitely gonna be a problem. Yes. Yes. That's a problem. It's a problem, can be problem.
So what is it? What is it? Usually, it's being humiliated in front of people and feeling weak and dominated this. That's it's okay, the physical.
Expect, that's that's, of course that's there, but it's usually the idea of being embarrassed and feeling weak. That's usually that's a universal feeling of fear. I think, you know, matter of fact.
The absolute horror of being so fatigued. You can't move. That's a terrible feeling and I know, I know how it is. You could. Um, oh no, you can always push. Yeah, you can always think you can. But there's a moment where, you know, I can do 11 squats. I can't do 12. What kind of go? Okay. What about 13? Okay. What about at some point, your body? Oh, but what about that? What does that mean? I cannot train harder to where I cannot get 15 the next day at? No, of course, I can do that.
So at the time physiological breakdown, you cannot go anymore.
At that time, that guy had my arm there. I couldn't move and I had a tap and that's the truth. Well, if you can't admit that, that's a hard pill to swallow. That's a real difficult thing to admit, you know, ego the the ability to let's say the inability to admit.
I'm not as strong, as I thought I was. That's a scary thing for a lot of people, a lot of, I think nowadays.
Where everything's YouTube. Facebook me. Me me, right? I mean that actually look at me.
Right amount my own style. Admit. I'm doing something wrong. I'm making a mistake. Or I'm not as strong as I thought I was. That's a fear. A lot of people have and said, ugly. It's ugly truth to face. But if you can face that, I mean, would not be almost like,
Almost like extreme ownership of yourself or sure if you can actually do that. I mean, I think that would be overall good investment. You can give yourself if you give it a so what actually scares you, that's what it is. That's what. So now, here's where the dichotomy of atoms in
because check it out. You want to have that attitude, but at the same time, you know, I know Fighters and you see Fighters that have this
overwhelming confidence and they might not
even be as skilled as
Confidence belies, but the confidence actually works. Right? Like they have so much belief in themselves that they can can can project that on their opponent and they sometimes beat their opponent before they've even step into the cage. Yeah. So there's that there's a balance, right? I mean, on paper, Conor McGregor vs. Jose Aldo on paper. Who should have won that
fight.
Oh, although had more of a history more of a history.
I mean, more more actual bounce, more victories. I mean, he was
just, I don't know if that I think I would describe it more spirit and I'm not just saying you have to believe in the spirit. I mean, the attitude, the self. Yeah, it's uh believe it's a weird thing. I do know people around that that outward facade of power that when they do lose. They're gone. Mmm, so
I think it still does apply. If you can accept the ugly truth and the Ugly Truth could be. I just made a mistake. I want left or something, right? It has happened has happened before. I even saw one Cro Cop fade or there was a kick, woke up, throw through and as a fighter, I know Fedor didn't see it, but he put his head down and threw over and right at the same time and I could be wrong. But as a fighter, his head went down the same time, the lake went up and the leg, missed him by two inches. Hmm. If Fedora didn't throw that.
Punch will be kale in my opinion. He went out got it. So what happened was the kick missed and I believe Crow Hop fell down or if we took him down so it's just well-timed. Of course the harder you train that the better. Your timing is the lucky we get. Yes. So so sometimes the the truth is that you should have none left. He went. Right? But when you do make a mistake or something, bad happens to you. Okay, how are you to come back from that? And I'm not trying to sound like the kindergarten school teacher.
You never know. It's just, it's, it's only matters. You can ever make mistakes. Just come back stronger than ever. Not trying to sound like that.
But but how do you come back from the steak? You know, I'm not be mr+. Who I'm
saying? Well, you've done that multiple times, you know, obviously the their first world championship in Brazil, in Brazil in 2003. You came back from being. How many matches do you have your first day
to? I lost my second match. Who'd you lose it to jungchi Barrel, Jean j my Nemesis and he beat you on blowing, we were tied.
And then he won he 1824, or do you win by eating a 5.0? He might have. I know he
like ran up the score because you can to take some risks at the end. It
was tied four to four if he won 12 24 or something. Yeah. It was. Yeah and there's a turning point in the match. This is actually relevant to to what you learn and how you handle things and make them into a positive. There's a move called a sit through or also known as a peek out where you have the points legs and you have to throw yourself under them and get around to the back. And I've done
that move pretty well. And I learned at age, 14 in Restless, a wrestling move. How you do not ever look to the head when I go under eye circles around to your back. I look to your feet, no matter what happens. Do not look the other way. I know this age, 14, and what jean, gee, I'm doing the move to mime walking
around and I took
the wrong way. And that moment of weakness. I look back and John, you just was on top. And that was the turning point of the match. We,
so, when you looked you to, you got like, Curious and you look good.
Ed. What? It's because it seems like the
easier way to go. It feels. It feels like if I go that way, I might get on top, it just feels that way because it never happened. It never happens. I'm going, I should just kept walking around and I'm not, I don't know what happened. But the next day long behold. I faced, very good opponent Marshall Cruz Pages, Pages panel from Brazil, very tough guy, and he's taller longer and heavier
than John G. And at that
moment.
Believe he was higher rank than jean. Jean. Jean. He was already ranked this world champion. Well, he
is definitely higher rank in that weight class because he was a, he was way bigger wood here at 265, some
like that. It's a huge guy. Yeah, he freaking monster. He looks like my goodness. He looks like a mutant. Yeah. Paid upon was just like, I believe it's them. It's the Moose from rocking bowl and oh, yeah, it's some cartoon character. A cartoon characters looks good, big cartoon, and I did this move to him and I had
to walk.
More than 360. But I did not look back the head and then I got to him and that
was a turning point of that match and I want. So if it wasn't for that mistake, literally, I don't know if I would have been, you know, I'm not saying no, but I'm maybe not even one the absolute division. So that mistake actually probably is the reason I won the next day actually. And also I didn't have anything to lose. I wasn't the North American qualifier trying to come out and I mean I was I was not supposed to win so I had nothing to lose.
You and that was a good thing for me to have that day.
Were you ever able to capture the attitude of nothing to lose in a situation, like 2011, when you want again, we do you think you captured that. Did you have nothing to lose? Because here was the old man coming in to fight against the young kids? There's no way this guy is going to win. Was that enough to kind of get your mind set? Right? I think I did. I didn't realize until
afterwards though, because
because I'm in Spain, I went to Spain with you. Yeah, I'm also
Bad
luck. Bad luck. It seems like when I've gone to Abu Dhabi World Championships with you. You have not won. When I'm not with you. You win so bad luck, but when we were to Spain it seemed like there was hype right there was like yeah, you are Dean Lister, you are the light came back from bicep surgery.
Yeah, so is like hey you had a
bicep surgery but your back because like a lot of expectations around you doesn't five. I was the Super fight champ.
Ian versus the very respected as Jean. Jacques Machado and 2007 bicep snapped. I can't face Roger AC. So I was potentially going to be the next defending Super Fighter Champ, but I'm out because injury so 2009, I come back as the previous guy who couldn't couldn't couldn't compete face Rogers still
the man. Yeah. That's what it was. And there was a lot of pressure. I remember it felt that way. It felt that way like when we were in sparse Ilona, right Barcelona, we were in Barcelona, you know, you were like d, mr. And
Everyone with, there's a lot of pressure like, hey, it's Dean Lister.
He's back. He's gonna,
he's gonna Crush everyone. And I mean, you did fine, but you lost it. Freaking crappy match. Bye-bye. Refs decision or something. It was, it was a
very close match because match to put two closed gone either way. Yeah,
but, but anyways, there was but then you somehow you were able to go to England and I know and get the mindset of. So, now it's two years later. You hadn't, you didn't do good in the previous 80. Maybe that's what it is.
All it took was you you didn't do good in the previous one. So now you show up. There's no expectations again. Oh, it's Dean. He's too old now. He didn't even do good last time. Don't worry about Dean and your own are going to call. Don't worry about me. I'll be just be over here getting after it. Just going to let loose and it worked.
Yeah, I think you were going. You were injured. Two
ribs, right? Well, that was, I didn't want anyone to know about that. It was my second match against see. This is
another thing. I noticed about you, like, I talk to you and he I could tell I was actually happy, you had injured ribs because you were
like, I got injured
ribs. It's another one of those things where I could tell it was getting your mind into the mode of you have nothing to lose. That guy, have injured ribs, and you kind of, like, I haven't driven, but I'm just going to go. You said, I'm not gonna do the absolute, but I'm just gonna do, I'm going to finish.
Weight classes and I was kind of thinking myself. Okay. He's in that zone of he has nothing to lose, which is the perfect zone for you to be in.
Well, I told myself, I'm not, I'm not the big praying type, but I was like, hey, I'm gonna pray and I said God, you know, if if you can help being just get through this moment and if I could win my Division, I promise I won't the absolute Vision. If I don't win, I'm gonna
go downstairs and I'm gonna hurt myself really bad or just so, you know,
know that if you want me to hurt myself, that's the that's probably one of the most awkward prayers. That God is ever heard. Yeah. I probably probably, he's probably a leaves. I do you got for a meal. Well, then I won. And you're supposed to say, hey, if I can win, I'll dedicate the rest of my life to helping underprivileged children. Not if I win, I won't do the absolutely key to want me to hurt myself. I think it worked. Hey, when people procrastinate
Four.
For the pain or for the not, not the pain, but the but the nerves that they're about to have. Is there any way to overcome like you got a face do to help to face those nerves their way to face the nerves earlier.
I have a new if you thought of this word the procrastination of procrastination. Like I've actually caught myself.
Even listen to your words going. Hey, get up right now and I'm like, yeah, for later. I always thinking, I just procrastinated, I just did, I just did exactly what I shouldn't do. So if you actually can catch yourself realizing when you're procrastinating, that's a big thing because sometimes it
just flies right by. Yeah, we're in. And I had to human beings are really good at at camouflaging or ignoring or covering up for procrastination, procrastination by. Not even acknowledging that it's there.
So, is the question just how to
prepare for the incision or not? It is procrastination. I guess. My point is that procrastinating the event, coming does not help you avoid getting nervous? It's
something I mentioned earlier about the truth. Your true self has, one has one of you two to compete. The day of your competition. You might be thinking what was that damn thinking? This is enough. This is uncomfortable because all these emotions what I'm thinking your self-doubt and the
You compete, they'll get better and better better. Even if you don't win your first tournament, even if you lose your first match, you will become better over time. As long as you don't give up. But man,
I guess the point is that if you if you get in the habit of procrastinating what you're supposed to be doing, you're going to be more nervous. You're going to have more. Yeah, so anxiety. So going into your choice your original Self
needs to actually commit and set a date and say I'm doing that day. That's it. And actually make sure it's not a
Eight where you have an excuse like, oh, it's my, my in-laws wedding anniversary. Whatever. You have, no doubt with excuse to get out of it. Just find a day. We can commit and do it and then start training. And if you feel that you're procrastinating, you actually, I now have a date and that's a lot harder to procrastinate. Now. They have a date. Yeah, it's possible. It's harder.
You know, what? Speaking of looking to the Future? So, Sarge Sarge used to say when he was getting ready like to for wrestling. He would, he
Eat. I would say, well, who, you know, he'd be talking about visualization and I say, who would you visualize that you're going against? And he's the he'd always say, I visualize a blank face and I would just kill this blank face he goes and then like, when he actually knows who's going to wrestle, you know, because, you know, he's gonna wrestle such and such a school in, they're supposed to have this guy, but he said, I wouldn't picture that guy's face that way. If it changed. Yeah, I wouldn't be like caught off guard. So, you know, if he's wrestling at 143 or whatever and there's someone else, you know, so
He knows the guy from this school is 143. They knew he knows the guys, who knows what he looks like, but he doesn't picture that guy who pictures a wrestler with a blank face
just a white blank face and then and then
as like the day arrives and he sees that that guys made weight and he's not
injured and that's who's gonna wrestle. The they put his
face on there and goes out and murders them. He
probably says, I assign at least
it. Did he tell you like this? Looking yourself sideways?
I can imagine him talking like that, too.
Yeah. Well a man. Those are those are some good things to talk about. I think I think really the biggest takeaway is like you are going to get nervous for competition. You're going to get nervous for job interview. You're going to get nervous to step up and lead for the first time. You're going to get nervous. When you have your first kid, there's all kinds of situations that you're going to get nervous about frame it, you know frame it in your brain, understand it.
Understand that it's not a bad thing. You know, like Mike Tyson. Hey, it's okay. I'm going to be nervous. Yeah, you should be nervous because it's a big deal and if you're not afraid of it, if you take it, you contain it. Don't let it run you. But you use that fear, use that anxiety. Use those nerves to make you train harder. Maybe that's the part about procrastination. If you procrastinate if you keep saying, well, I won't be nervous, right? Yeah, like if you procrastinate feeling those, if you procrastinate
Nose, you can get used to them. Like here we are. We're ready. Yeah, you know, even when we're training for a fight and it's like we start training in the beginning of the camp, you know, it doesn't really matter. What time of day, you train your training, few times a day, but then the closer you get to Camp, the more you want the to train around the time, you're actually going to fight.
Yeah, you don't
want to procrastinate you those because now you start thinking, okay. It's real easy to say off. I'm fighting in six weeks. I'm feeling a little bit nervous. I think this is what I was talking about the procrastination. Think I'm feeling a bit little bit nervous. I'm just
Going to bury those thoughts right now. Yeah, you know what? I mean, you
procrastinate facing the nerves. So I guess what I'm saying is don't procrastinate facing. There's like exit. Be like, oh, yeah. Think about it. Yeah. And think about what you're going to do with those nerve, don't procrastinate being nervous because the nerves will grow and they, you won't know how to
handle it. When you think about Musashi, saying he would Envision every possible wave of death, falling off. A cliff being incinerated by a fire. I'm just going off in this.
All right, at least about. Now, he's ready for the worst of the worst and nothing can really scare them.
Yeah, that's that's, you know, going on the battlefield already. Dead is a very positive thing. And, you know, we had this guy, the Frenchman Doug Letourneau on the podcast and he was in SOG and Vietnam and they were doing just the most insane missions. You can possibly imagine and it's not on the podcast. I talked about on the podcast, but because we conversed after he left or after we stopped recording but for every operation that he went on,
On before he went, he made his bed. He squared away his Footlocker. He put everything in its right place. He removed anything that was, you know, questionable on Sat so that his Footlocker could be sent home because every opted he went on, he thought he could die and he wanted to be ready for it. And so if you have that attitude going in yes, I think that's a I think that's a great attitude to have. I think the worst attitude you can go into these situations is is I'm afraid it's going to happen. I'm not ready for ya. Right? I'm
Ready to make that sacrifice. I'm not if you face the fact that I guess another procrastination. If you look at, if you, if you're six weeks away from a fight or your six weeks away from a job interview and you have a quick thought that I'm going to get knocked out or I'm going to say the wrong thing and not get the job. And instead of saying. Okay. What does that mean? Because if you live, you rationalize and say, hey, I'm going to learn something or I'm going to learn something about the job that I didn't get or I'm gonna have more opportunity to prepare if you say, okay. Well, this is the worst case scenario. I get knocked out. Worst case scenario. I don't
get the job interview. Cool. Let's deal with it right now. Don't procrastinate. Look at what it actually. How does that affect your life? Because guess what? There's other jobs out there. There's other fights you can do. You're going to get knocked out at some point. Let's figure out what you mistake you made. So if you look at the thing, you don't procrastinate the nerves you face the nerves. And again the dichotomies, I'm not talking about sitting around and being nervous for freaking six weeks and having your adrenaline pumping all the time. You're not gonna have that. So there's there's, there's these things you have to do. You have to anticipate the fact that you're going to be nervous.
And then learn how to deal with these these thoughts by just thinking through. And if you think through them, I think that's the, I think that's the solution you think through. What's the worst-case scenario? Worst-case scenario is you get tapped out and go.
Yeah. You want to hear a Training Method, to even help you more for a Jiu-Jitsu for this type of thing.
Absolutely.
I always have done this and you are one of the few that never shied away from this. I always start in a bad position. I always start in Bowl, most the worst position.
Almost start with more how you were aware of this start with you. Like not, you specifically
start with an arm lock on me and I'm going to start from there
because if that's the worst, the worst every day. I'm starting. Their first of all, I'm reading a harder workout than you. I'm cheating. I'm selfish. Actually, now my friend may not see it that way because it's easy day for him, you know, he's not risking his arm, but I'm actually getting stronger. My bones. My arms are getting super strong because of the resistance I get, you know,
And I think that's one reason why I can not say I can rest in our online, but I can kind of hang out there for a while.
You know, I think one day I did five arm locks in you, in wrote meaning exactly what you're saying. I started in the arm lock I started in the arm lock and you got out of all of them that to me was ridiculous. My unlocks not great, but it's not as bad. You have good. It is not bad and I armlock plenty of people and you letting me stay.
Start in the arm. Lock, I'm talking in the arm. Lock like my legs, are I have your arm. You should be tapping in in less than one second. That's where I was starting with the arm extended. Yeah, totally extended. Do you not remember
this? Yeah. I remember you. And I was on a I had a good day though. I was on them. I don't know. I have had a real good
day. Well, yeah, and actually you what you were doing was you were showing me something because you did this escape and I couldn't stop you and
Then you said, here's what I'm doing. No, and it was like the whole thing of your shoulder going into the thing. And then you showed me the GE escape and I was like, God, that's the kind of thing that freaks me out about you. Because, how did you know that? How do you know that? I think it's because you have a depth of knowledge, that's not normal.
I don't know. I don't know.
Like the fact, it's counterintuitive the way you escape that arm lock is counterintuitive. No one would think that.
Pushing more into it would be more beneficial, right? Yeah, but somehow it is.
Well, it's like, it's like, a you ever get frustrated, untying a knot you and now, the knots just the gotta cut it. Now, you gotta get there, you get frustrated and damn it. You know, I should just relaxed pushed into the, you know, why you get pulled apart and Knots now, it's just done. So, sometimes if I pull away from a submission, how about I got it. He's into it a little bit. So I'm didn't push and I eased and well-known. Okay. My shoulder went out. That's true.
But yeah, that was a good day for me. I was just on that day. I remember that day was on this this matter than our normal map, we train on. Yeah, but if I start and also, as you know Machado, he has great great back attacks. He has a great joke. We have my training started when my opponents on my back half my training started there to where I can kind of relax in that situation and if I can start, when someone's mounted on top of
And learn how to escape that I can use that as my rock-bottom reset Point. Like always reset that point and then that helps you mentally to relax because if your fear is I'm getting smashed from the bottom and I can't breathe start, their start there and learn how to relax and learn how to escape it is not, it's not what you want to happen. Is what you want to avoid happening. So because of that, start in that situation,
Put yourself in bad positions. Box
has a problem getting on the corner. Start in the corner and boxing. Every round. You start in the corner. It's going to suck it soon. Hey, boo. You can't say we had that fight in Puerto Rican
kid. Oh, yeah. City boxing.
Yeah, he was well-rounded. But his problem I recall was being in the corner stuck. He was a small guy. But if he wasn't the corner, he'd like you up, but if you but learning
how to fight out of the corner,
Vince,
You can hold on the corner. I mean this thing's like that, you know, so is uncomfortable, is that is you have to confront it as soon as you can. And that will also help you from procrastinating because you are not procrastinating bike front of your fear directly as a Training Method.
Check check. That's a good place to close man. Awesome Dean. If you want to talk to if you want to hit up Dean Lister on social media, he's on Instagram.
At d-lister
BJJ, right? Yes, and anyone has any kind of questions. You wanted me to go over this kind of thing. Send me a little message at dealers should be J. It don't boo. Most it amongst your Brazil and my new home. But Agatha. Come on, Suzy, at those who was like, a father to him, but he gathered but I
suppose I said the same thing. Yeah. I know. I heard you say pregunta, but better very good. Yeah. Yeah, that's Spanish.
They're they're closed up. And if you want to hear from me at Jocko, willing doc, I'm at I just add Jocko willing. Yeah, I have another podcast called Jocko podcast jockle, podcast.com and our gym here, where Dean and I are at, is Victory, Jim's.com. We're here in San Diego, California. If you come out to San Diego, come by get some training in hang out. And if you need Jiu-Jitsu gear,
Go to origin main.com. We got gies that are American-made. We got supplements for life. So you can check that out, too. Anyways, have a good one and go roll. We'll catch you later
out.
