The following is conversation with Noam Chomsky his second time in the podcast, this episode is focused on the war in Ukraine and it is a departure from the way I usually do. This podcast in several ways Nome is a strong and healthy 93 year-old but this conversation is remote to be cautious.
It is brief only one hour, it is more of an interview than a conversation, due to the limitations of our Audio and Video Connection. I decided it's best to get gnomes. Clear thoughts on this war and the complicated geopolitics of today, and the rest of the 21st century that is unrolling before us with our decisions and actions fully capable of either helping Humanity, flourish or unleashing, Global destruction and suffering.
As a brief aside, perhaps you know this but let me mention that I travel to Ukraine and saw heard felt things that are haunting and gave me a lot to think about because of that, I've been really struggling to edit the videos. I recorded, I hope to finish it soon. I'm sorry for these delays and I'm especially sorry to the people there, who gave me their time, their story, their heart. Please be patient with me. I hope you understand.
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Answers in the description and now dear friends. Here's Noam Chomsky.
You have studied and criticized powerful leaders and nations in times of global conflict and struggles for power. So, let me ask you. What do you think, motivates Vladimir Putin?
Is it power Legacy, Fame, Geo political influence or the flourishing of a Nation, he loves and represents.
I have no particular insight into Putin's mind. I can only watch the actions over the last 20, 25 years and read the statements.
Took power felt almost 25 years ago is held offenses. Prime minister or president his first task was to try to overcome the chaos and disarray of the 1990s.
During the 90s Gorbachev had a proposal the cold for a Cooperative Enterprise with the West. They would share an effort to rebuild what he called a common European home in which there would be. No military alliances just Russia.
Western us, accommodation with move towards social democracy and
Former USSR and comparable moves in the United States. Well, that was quickly smashed the United States had no interest in that Clinton came along pretty soon. Early 90s, Russia was induced to adopt goes, cold, shock therapy harsh quick.
Market transformation, which devastated the economy, created enormous, social or disarray, rise of what are called? Oligarchs clip to correct Greeley immortelle High mortality and Clinton started the policy of expanding NATO to the east in violation of firm unambiguous promises to
Gorbachev not to do so Yeltsin, Putin's friend opposed it to other Russian leaders opposed it, but they didn't react the accepted when Putin came in he continued that policy. Meanwhile did reconstruct the Russian economy. Western Society became a viable deeply authoritarian Society, under his tight control.
He himself was it organized a major clip Tucker's that you missed him in the middle be fairly became very wealthy on the international front. He pretty much continued the former policies as us, diplomats practically every Diplomat who had any contact with Russia? Had been dispatched, their new about it as they all worn from the 90s.
That what Clinton was doing. Suspended by his poem push push to afterwards was Reckless and provocative that Russia did have a clear Red Line before Putin, which he adhered to namely no NATO membership for Ukraine. And Georgia, this is pretty much how things went on through the
2020 14, 2008. George Bush. President Bush. Did invite Ukraine to join NATO. That was vetoed by France and Germany, but under us pressure, it was kept on the agenda. The Russians continued to objective Western diplomats including the present present, current did head of the CIA and its predecessors.
Warned that this was Reckless, provocative should be done continued. Putin didn't do much. He stayed with it until pretty recently. After 2014, the uprising that throughout the former president, it was pro-russian instituted and erosion laws, the United States
- who began to a policy of moving to effectively integrate Ukraine into the NATO command joint military exercises training, sending weapons and so on Putin objected other Russian leaders objected their unit unified on this but didn't do much continued with the
Puzzles that native that, Ukraine be excluded from NATO, and that there be some form of autonomy for the donbas region. Meanwhile, in reaction to the uprising, the maidan uprising 2014, Russia moved in and took over Crimea protecting it. One warm water base
And major Naval these u.s. objected and recognize it but things continued without notable. Conflict won't go through all the details. When Joe Biden came in, he expanded the program of what US military journals Grohl defect of integration of Ukraine within NATO, develop proposed.
Aged September 20, 21 opposed enhanced program of preparation for the NATO. Mission is extended with a formal statement in November. We're now practically up to the invasion, Putin's position, hardened France, mainly France to mixed in. Germany did make some moves towards
Possible negotiations, Puttin dismiss them moved on to the direct Invasion. That's what, what are his to get back to your question? What motivates them? I presume what he's been saying. All along namely establishing his legacy as a leader, who overcame
I'm the.
Extensive destruction of Russia and massive weakening over it restored. His position as a world power. Prevented Ukraine from entering NATO that may have further emissions as to dominating and controlling Ukraine. Very likely there is a theory in the west that he suddenly became a total madman who wants to restore the great Russian.
this is combined with
gloating over the fact that the Russian military is a paper tiger in. The can't even conquer City's deserted couple of kilometers from the border. But defended not even by a regular army, but some have a long with this. He's planning to attack me to Powers conquer Europe. Who knows what? It's impossible to put all these Concepts together?
Totally internally contradictory. So what's my judgment?
I think what motivates them is, what has been demonstrated in his actions, restore Russia, as a great power restored economy control it as a total dictatorship enrich himself and his cronies establish it Legacy is a major figure in Russian history. Make sure that Ukraine does.
Join native. And
Probably by now he's hoarding the position, maintain Crimea, and the South Eastern Corridor, Russia. And some ambiguous agreements about the donbas region. That looks like his motivation. There's much speculation that goes beyond this, but it's very hard to reconcile with the the assessment of the real world.
The same people who are making the grandiose speculations.
Putting has been in power for 22 years. Do you think power has corrupted him?
I don't think anything's changed. It seems to me is part of his policies are about the same as what they were. They've changed in response to change circumstances. So very recently right before the invasion a few weeks before, for the first time, Putin announced recognition of the independence of the donbass region that
We're positioned and before much stronger up till then he had pretty much kept to the long-standing position of some kind of accommodation within a federal structure in which deed done best region would have considerable autonomy. So that's a are sharing of the position that even the
human mind of Vladimir Putin, the man.
I can't read his mind. I can only see the policies that he's pursued and the statements that he's made. There are many people speculating about his mind. And as I say, these speculations are, first of all, not based on anything, never said, anything about trying to conquer NATO and but more importantly they are totally inconsistent with the analyses of Russian power.
But the same people who are making the speculations. So we see the same individual speculating about Putin's, grandiose plans to become Peter, the Great and Conquer start attacking Neato powers. On the one hand saying that the other hand gloating over the fact that his military Powers so minuscule. He can't
Even conquer the town's a couple miles from the border when it's impossible to make sense of that position.
Why did Russia invade Ukraine on February 24th? Who do you think is to blame? Who do you place the blame on?
Well, who's to blame any power that commits aggression is to blame? So I continue to stay as I have been for many months that The Invasion, Putin's invasion of Ukraine is on a par with such acts of aggression. As the US invasion of Iraq, the the Stalin Hitler, an invasion of Poland.
Rights of the Supreme International crime under under international law creation. Of course, he's to blame
the u.s. committed. Six point nine billion in military assistance to Ukraine since the Russian invasion should u.s. keep up with the support.
There are two questions. One has to do with providing support for defense against The Invasion, which is certainly legitimate.
And the other is seeking ways to end the crime before even worse disasters. Arise now that second part is not discussed in the west barely discussed anyone who dares to discuss it is immediately subjected to a flood of invective and historical come into condemnation. But if you're serious about Ukraine, there are two things you
One, what can we do to support Ukraine in defense against aggression? Second, how can we end moved in the war before it leads to even worse destruction of Ukraine or starvation worldwide? Reversing the efforts of limited efforts to deal with global warming. Possibly moving up, an escalation enter the war.
The nuclear war, that's the second half of the borrow a phrase, attributed to Winston Churchill, there's a lot of war war, but, no, joy, joy, joy and the rotor, be drew a Julia. If you care about Ukraine and the rest of the world,
Can it be done? We don't know. The official US policy is to reject a diplomatic settlement to move to weaken Russia severely so that it cannot carry out further aggression, but not do anything on the georgiou aside not think of how to bring the crimes and atrocities to an end.
That's the second part of the question. So yes, the US should continue with the kind of calibrated support. That's been given the Pentagon wisely has vetoed initiatives to go will Beyond support for defense up to attack on Russia so for the had a gun
Seems to be the image component in the US Administration, has vetoed plans, which very likely would lead on to nuclear war which would destroy everything. So, calibrated provision of weapons, to blunt the offencive allow Ukraine to defend itself if sensible combined with efforts to see if something can be done,
One to bring the crimes and atrocities to an end. And over the much worst consequences that are in store that would be all instead the us only dealing with the first and all of our discussions limit themselves to the first in the United States and in Britain, not in Europe.
Do you worry about nuclear
war in the 21st century? How do we avoid it?
Anyone who doesn't worry about nuclear war doesn't have a gray, still functioning? Of course, everyone is worried about nuclear war and or shrewdly is very easy to see how steps could be taken, even been recommended, that would lead to nuclear war.
So you can read articles even by liberal commentators who say we should drop. All the pretenses, just go to war against Russia. They have to be destroyed. You can see proposals coming from Congress. Other leading figures saying, we should establish a no-fly zone.
Paragon objects, the pointed out correctly, that to establish a no-fly zone, you have to have control of the air, which means destroying Russian air defense systems, which happened to be inside, Russia. We don't know that Russia won't react even the cold now. Almost Universal to ensure that Ukraine win.
Ins drives out all, the Russians drives him out of the country, sounds nice done paper, but notice the Assumption. The assumption, is that blood Amir Putin? This madman who's just seeks power and is out of control. We'll sit there. Quietly, accept defeat slink away, not use the military means that of course he has to destroy.
Ukraine, one of the interesting comments that came out. And today's long article, I think Washington Post reviewing a lot of leaks from actually not leaks actually presented by us, intelligence, and US leaders about the long build-up to the war. One of the points that made was surprised on the part of British and US leaders about
Putin's strategy and his failure to adopt to fight the war. The way the US and Britain would with real shock and awe destruction of communication facilities or energy facilities. And so on, they can understand why he hasn't done all that. Well, could, if you want to make it very likely that that will happen, then insist on fighting until
Somehow Russia faces total defeat then.
It's a gamble, you know, but if he's just crazy and insane as you claim, presumably will use weapons that he hasn't used yet to destroy Ukraine. So the West is taking an extraordinary gamble with the fate of Ukraine gambling that the madman lunatic. Men fled won't use the weapons. He has to destroy you cream.
And set the stage for escalation of the letter which might lead to nuclear war. Quite a gamble. How much
propaganda is there in the world today? In Russia and Ukraine in the
West.
Extraordinary.
In Russia, of course it's total Ukraine is a different story. There are War propaganda in the west. Let me quote, Graham, Fuller, very highly placed in u.s. intelligence, one of the top officials for decades, dealing mostly with Russia and Central Asia. He recently said that in all the years of the Cold War,
Earth is an over. Seen any extreme, the rest of Hope was that Russia phobia to the extent that he sees today. That's pretty accurate.
I'm in the u.s. is even canceled rushing Outlets, which means if you want to find out what their a lover of the Russian officials are saying, you can't look it up on their own Outlets. You have to go through Ultra 0, Indian State television or someplace. Would they still?
Low Russian positions to be expressed. And, of course, the propaganda is just outlandish. I think Fuller, is quite correct. And this in Russia. Of course you expected total propaganda, this. Nothing, any independent Outlets such as there were have been
crushed.
If the media is a source of inaccuracies and even lies. Then how do we find the truth? I don't
regard the media as a source of, as a source of inaccuracies and lives. They do exist, but by and large media, reporting is reasonably accurate reporters, the journalists themselves as in the past to Courageous.
Honest work. I've written about this for 50 years. My opinion hasn't changed but they do pick certain things and not other things. There are selection. This framing is ways of presenting things, all of the forms a kind of propaganda system, which you have to work your way through but
It's rarely a matter of straight outright
lying.
So, there's a difference between propaganda and
lying. Of course, the propaganda system shapes and limits the material, that's presented. It may tell the truth within that framework.
So, let me give you an income creat example, which I wrote about extensively, have a book called manufacturing consent, jointly with Edward Herrmann.
It's about the is term. Giant accepted a propaganda model of the media. About a large part of the book is defensive, the media defense of the media against harsh attacks by Freedom House. Several volumes, they published attacking the media. Charging the, the media were so adversarial and dishonest that they lost the war in Vietnam. Well, it took the trouble of
Reading through the two volumes, one volume is charges. The next volume is evidence. Turns out that all of the evidence is lies, they had no evidence, they were just lying the media. In fact, we're doing the journalists were doing an honest courageous work. But within a certain framework, a framework of assuming that the American
Cause was basically just basically honorable making mistakes doing bad things, but all, but the idea of questioning that the United States was engaged in a major war crime, that's off the Record. So unfortunately there was this crime and that crime which harm their effort to do good and so on.
That's not lying. It's propaganda.
So, how do we find the
truth?
How do we find the truth? That's what you have a brain for. It's not deep. It's quite shallow. It's not quantum physics. Put a little effort into it. Think about look for other sources? Think a little about history. Look at the documentary, record it all pretty well falls together and get a reasonable understanding. What's happening.
if you could sit down with Vladimir Putin,
And ask him a question or talk to him about an idea. What would you say
that would walk out of the room? Just as with almost any other leader. I know what he's going to say. I read the party line, I read his pronouncements doesn't want to hear from me. How am I going to say? Why did you carry out a crime that's comparable to the US invasion of Iraq and the Stalin? Hitler invasion of Poland.
I'm going to ask that question.
If I met with the John F, Kennedy study where they asked. Why did you radically escalate the war, in Vietnam launched the US Air Force, start authorized Napalm Drive launch programs to drive villagers who you know are supporting the National Liberation Front. Drive them into concentration camps to separate them from the forces there.
Defending, we reversed them.
Of course, 9.
Do you think the people who let us into the war in Vietnam?
The war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The war in
Ukraine.
Are evil.
I mean, it's very hard to be in a position of leadership of a violent aggressive power without carrying out, evil Acts.
Are the people
evil.
I've been I'm not their moral advisors, I don't know anything about them. I look at their actions. Their statements, their policies. Evaluate those other families can evaluate their personalities. Will there be a
war between us and China in the 21st century?
If there is, we're finished.
Okay,
a war between the US and China would destroy the possibilities of organized life on Earth. In fact, we can put it differently unless the US and China.
Reach an accommodation and work together and cooperatively. It's very unlikely. That organized Human Society, Will Survive. We are facing enormous problems problems.
Destruction of the environment and demux threat of nuclear war. None of these decline of democratic functioning of an arena for rational discourse but none of these things have boundaries. We either work together to overcome it, overcome them which we can do or we'll all sing together. That's the real question we should be asking.
With the United States is doing is not helping, so we current US policy which is perfectly open. Nothing secret about it, is to what's called incircle China, the official word with Sentinel States, South Korea, Japan Australia, which will be heavily
Armed provided by Biden with Precision weapons aimed at China. Backed by a major Naval operations, huge Naval operation just took place in the Pacific, many nations participating room back, didn't get reported yours far as I know, but an enormous operation threatening shining all of this do in circle China.
To continue with policies. Like then somebody like Pelosi tested probably to make her look more. I don't know what what her motives are taking a highly provocative stupid act opposed by the military opposed by the White House? Yes, act like that. Which of course cold for the response.
Highly dangerous. We don't have to do that. You don't have to increase the threat. I mean, right now, the last NATO Summit. Take a look at it for the first time it invited to attend the countries that are in the Sentinel States surrounding China and circling China from the East and it in fact extended the range
In Germany do to What's called the indo-pacific region. So, all of us by now the North Atlantic, includes the whole indo-pacific region to try to ensure that we can overcome the so-called China thread in Italy. We might ask exactly what the China threat is.
Done sometimes. So former prime minister of Australia will heating will known International Diplomat had an oracle while to go in the Australian press. That's right in the claws of the Dragon asking going through what the China through it is he ran through the various claims. Finally concluded the China threat, is the China exists.
It exists, it is not follow you as orders. It's not like Europe, Europe does with the United States tells it to do, even if it doesn't like it. China. Just ignores with the u.s. is, there's a formal way of describing this. There are two versions of the international order.
One version is the UN base to International order, which theoretically, we subscribe to, but we don't accept the UN based International order is unacceptable to the United States because it bans u.s. foreign policy.
Literally it explicitly bans, the threat or use of force in international Affairs. Except under circumstances, that almost never arise. Well, that's u.s. foreign policy. Try to find a president who isn't engaged in the threat or use of force in international Affairs. Okay? So obviously we can't accept the UN based International System
even though under the Constitution, that's the supreme law of the land. It doesn't matter. So the United States has what's called a rule-based international order that's acceptable because it's the United States that sets the rules. So we want a rule-based international order where the u.s. it's the rules.
In commentary in the United States. Even in scholarship, almost 100% calling for a rule-based international order.
Is that false? No, it's true. Is it propaganda? Of course, it's probably ended because of what's not said and because it was presupposed and answer to an earlier. Question will, China does not accept the rule based International order. So, when the u.s. imposes demands
You're may not like them that they follow them. China ignores them. So take for example, the US sanctions on Iran.
Us has to punish Iran because the United States pulled out of the unilaterally pulled out of the Ukraine, the Iran nuclear agreements. So in order to punish the ran for error wrecking, the agreements in violation of Security, Council orders, we imposed very harsh, sanctions Europe strongly, opposes the sanctions, condemn them harshly,
But in it, here's to them.
because you don't,
Disobey you as orders that's too dangerous China ignores them. They're not keeping to the rule-based international order. Well that's unacceptable. In fact it's said pretty openly you can hear the Secretary of State and others saying China is challenging or Global hegemony is they are they don't accept you as Global hegemony.
Especially in the waters with China.
So that's a chain of 3, they do a lot of rotten things, China. I mean internally. These will kind of repression and violence, and so on. But first of all, that's not a threat to us and second to us, doesn't care about it because it easily accepts and supports comparable crimes and atrocities internal two allies. So yes, we should protest it but without hypocrisy we have no.
To prove. This did we supported comprable things? Mm, all sorts of other places. I'm just take a look at the US foreign aid. The leading recipient is US. Foreign aid is Israel, which is engaged in constant Terror violence and repression constant. Almost daily, second leading recipient is Egypt.
Under the worst dictatorship in Egypt's history, that's 60,000 people in jail, free political, prisoners tortured. And so on to me care, s leading recipient. I mean, what are we talking about? That's why the most of the world just laughed serves you go to as a lot of failure to understand here about why the global South doesn't join us and our
Proxy war against Russia, fighting Russian tillage severely weakened, they don't join us here. The question is, what's wrong with them? What may look into their minds, to figure out what's wrong. They have a different attitude is that yes, we opposed the invasion of Ukraine, terrible crime, what are you talking about? This is what you do to us all the time.
You don't care about crimes like this. That's most of the global South. We can't comprehend that because we're so insulated that we are just obviously, right? And everyone who doesn't go along must be wrong.
Do you think the United States is a global leader as an Empire May collapse in this century?
Why and how will it happen? And how can we avoid
it, you know?
Can certainly.
Arm itself, severely. That's what we're doing right now.
Right now, the greatest threat to the United States is internal.
Countries tearing itself apart.
I
mean.
I really don't have to run through it with you. Take a look at something as Elementary as mortality. The United States is the only country outside of War life expectancy is declining mortalities increasing. It doesn't happen. Anywhere you take a look at Health outcomes, generally
There are among the worst among the developed societies and health spending is about twice as high as he developed societies. You look at the charts. Well, this starts around the night late 1970s early 80s said that if you go back to that point, the United States was pretty much a normal developed country. In terms of mortality incarceration, Health expenses
Other measures since then, the United States has fallen off the charging going way off the chart. Well, that's the neoliberal assault of the last 40 years had a major effect on the United States. So left a lot of anger resentment violence. Meanwhile, the Republican party is simply drifted off the Spectrum. It's not a normal political party in any
Usual sense, not what it used to be. Its main policy is walk anything in order to regain power. That's its policy stated almost openly by McConnell followed religiously by the entire leader the entire Congress. It's not it's not the act of a political party. It's so it's of course, democracies declined,
Violence has increased.
The judgments, the decisions of the Supreme Court vary, according to the most reactionary Court in memory to go back to the 19th century. Oh, decision after decision is an effort to create a country of white supremacist, Christian nationalists.
I means scarcely hidden, if you read the opinions of Aledo Thomas, Gorsuch and others,
So yes, we can destroy ourselves within and in fact, the ways we're doing it or almost astonishing. So it's will known. For example, everybody knows that u.s. infrastructure. Bridges Subways. And so on is in terrible shape needs a lot of repair American Association of Engineers. Gives it a failing more Giver year. Alright finally Congress did pass it.
Limited infrastructure. Bill say we build Bridges and join. It has to be called a China competition act. We can rebuild their Bridges because they're falling apart. We have to rebuild their Bridges to be China. It's pathological
And that's what's happening inside the country. Take good. Thomas's decision in the recent case in which he invalidated a New York law. This is Lester too rude, couple one couple weeks ago and validated it. New York lower going back to 1913 that required people to have some justification if they wanted to go.
Concealed weapons in public.
Give me through that with the very interesting decision. He said the the United States He said is such a decaying collapsing, hateful society that people just have to have guns. I mean, how can you expect somebody to go to the grocery store without a gun and a country is disgusting and hideous. Is this one is essentially what he said.
Those were his words but they were the import.
What gives you hope about the United States about the future of human civilization?
Human civilization will not survive unless the United States takes a lead the leading position in dealing with and overcoming the very severe crises that we Face United States. The most powerful country not only in the world but in
History is nothing to compare with it. With the United States is as an overwhelming impact on what happens in the world when the United States pulls out alone, pulls out of the Paris agreement on. Dealing with climate change and insist son maximizing, the use of fossil fuels and dismantling over the
The regulatory apparatus that provides some mitigation when the United States does that as it did under Trump, it's a blow to the future of civilization.
When Republican states today right now, say they're going to punish corporations that seek to Cave. Take the climate change into account in their Investments. The u.s. is Towing the world. We want to destroy all of us.
Again not their words but their import that's what they mean. So as long as we have a political organization dedicated to gaining power at any cost maximizing profit, no matter what the consequences.
No future for human
civilization.
No, thank you for talking today. Thank you for talking once again. And thank you for fighting for the future of human civilization again. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Noam Chomsky the support this podcast, please. Check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Voltaire.
It is forbidden to kill. Therefore, all murderers, are punished, unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
