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Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to interview world-class performers from all different areas. And I feel very fortunate today to have not only a world-class performer in his own right but a world-class performer who has a lot of experience working with world-class performers George Mumford. He is a globally recognized speaker teacher and coach since 1989. He's been honing his
In total but groundbreaking mindfulness techniques with people from locker rooms to boardrooms from Yale to jail while at the University of Massachusetts where he roomed with future Hall of Famer Julius Erving injuries forced Mumford out of basketball and eventually into an addiction to pain medication and drugs with the help of meditation and mindfulness. He got clean and made it his mission to teach and work with others Michael Jordan credits George with transforming his on-court leadership helping the Bulls to six NBA championships. George has also worked with Kobe Bryant.
Bryant Shaquille O'Neal and countless other NBA players as well as Olympians Executives and artists George believes. Everyone has a masterpiece with in his book The mindful athlete secrets to Pure Performance. Both Memoir and instruction guide can show you how to access it. George also has the mindful athlete course, which can be found at George Mumford.com as well as many other resources. You can find him on Instagram at George dot Mumford mu M. Fo R d-- and on Twitter at GT Mumford George
Welcome to the show. Thank you Tim. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm excited about being here. Me too. We were introduced by a mutual friend Jack kornfield who has nothing but wonderful things to say and you are a practitioner in more ways than one. So I love digging into the details and the stories. So we're going to start with a story and then we'll probably rewind but I would love to hear about the first time you ever watched my
Michael Jordan practice. What was that experience? Like the first time I watched Michael Jordan practice. It was amazing because he there's no difference between how he plays him what he how he practices. So if you see him performing on a court, that's how he practices. There's no difference. He just playing at a high level playing to win but also you can see how he gets better each time. He gets on the court. He just really locked in and really committed to Excellence.
I want to dovetail because my first encounter with Michael was not in practice. It was when I first went to work with the bulls. He had retired and even though he was retired. He wasn't with the team. He actually was hanging around he was in the locker room. And so I asked one of the players or might have been a coach to introduce me to him even before I could get close to him. I could feel his or I can feel his his ability his level concentration his mind Focus.
His ability he had this energy and I'm like an impact so I can feel things. I'm a feeler it was so profound even before I even got to meet him. Just feeling the energy that exuded from him and his ability to really be the eye of the hurricane and The Mists of thing. So that was the first fascinating thing I saw about him was just his energy just walking into the room and meeting him even though he didn't have one basketball uniform. He wasn't out on the court. He was just in the locker room. Just hanging out. What is it?
You felt like in your body. What was that experience like in meditation circles? We talked about getting into a state of intense state of concentration or somebody or calm. So when you really concentrated and you really like then there's a like I'm alert relaxedness. So you're alert but there's a poor he's there because you're in the moment you're centered and you're just totally present and that's what it felt. Like it just felt like there was an energy a calm energy, but
Also an intense energy. So that's what it felt like a combination of intensity in calmness. Now, you can't trust everything you read but I was of course doing some reading and preparation for this. So, please feel free to fact-check this but I read that when you first saw him practicing you thought to yourself something along the lines of there's no way he can sustain that. This must be someone with bipolar disorder or some type of disorder who's in a man.
Nick stage, is there any truth to that? No, I never said that. Okay, so I never know because my thing is see. I know the difference between high intensity and having an intensity based on on a mindset that's positive and combined if the one thing I did notice about the first practice that you reminded me of was that when I first saw him practice, he looked like a person trying to make the team in what respect he was just he was putting
forth the extra effort putting forth the extra effort like I got to make the team and course now, I understand why he was that way because what he did was let's think about how he related to his experience. We call her strong self-efficacy is like when you master your Mastery of Life Experiences, so he got cut from his high school basketball team and the 10th grade. And so I think at that time he made a decision he would never get cut from a team again and I saw that and the practice where he
Acting like he was trying to make the team now. I don't mean like like he has a anxiety and he's trying to impress people I'm saying he was proven that he's the best player on the court. You were getting his best you were getting at a high level. He wasn't resting. He was acting like I need to get better. I need to prove a point not so much pool point, but the let people know that there's no way I'm not making this team, but there's no way I'm not going to be Central to what we're doing.
So I see it as a positive. I don't remember saying that because I don't know if I would say I would say he has high energy. I know other people that have a high energy but his difference of him having high energy. It's with a purpose and there's a cat like quality to it and what I mean by like a cat like quality like you can see a cat a house cat they can go from being kind of chill to jump into action with a Grace with the he's with a ferocity and with a direction like a direct assault for
Ever they just it was like yeah, he can pounce on you any minute and we're going to certainly come back to Michael Jordan who especially mean at that time was effectively treated like a god. I mean this was this was the man who could walk on water and I'll add a footnote just for anyone advice who's listening. If so, this is an article from vice.com, which is a lot of great articles. Well researched articles, but this one may need some factual correction. So that is the Zen Masters a zen master, which is
a great headline that you must admit that as is very complimentary headline. Let's roll back the clock because I wanted to provide a snapshot of you working with not just athletes at the top of their game, but really at the time this Pantheon of athletes who were worshipped around the world and there's a big difference and there really is a difference but it wasn't always that way far from it.
And so let's fact-check a separate quote and you can tell me if this is more on the money and I should say also that the manic quote wasn't so much a quota was an indirect quote so they didn't use quotation marks, but they said thought to himself and things like that. This is one that I believe is a direct quote is from the Boston Globe quote. I had a security clearance on my badge and track marks on my forearm.
If that is even approximately accurate, could you provide a time and a place for when this was and explain please? Yeah, that was totally accurate because when I first job out of college was I was working in what was called was a financial management development program and I was working with GTE Sylvania. I don't even know if that what they're called now, but general telephone electronics and then surveying it light bulbs and there was a big company at the time when I got out of college.
College I was a functional addict and so I had tracks on my arm. So I had I always wore long sleeve shirts. I couldn't we wear shorts t-shirts. This was from heroin use Mmm Yeah from shooting up. Yes. So in those days when I was getting my security clearance, they literally had FBI agents coming around interview my friends and family going back ten years. You have to go through this tremendous process just to get a secret player to didn't is top secret.
But I had a secret clearance so I had to Clarence but at the same time I had this hidden life of you know tracks on my arm. So that's very accurate. It's totally accurate and it wasn't until probably when I got cleaning 84 years after that. There's no no more track marks, but for yes, it was very tenuous because I was concerned about passing physicals because I had to get examined by the doctors and they say, oh what's up with that? You know, what's that on your arm, you know, they kind of know what it looks like that.
A process and as a matter of fact when I used to have to give blood sometimes they would make a comment like well you got that all used up look, you know, so I would just laugh at it but it was a fair statement. So yeah, I had to wear long sleeve shirts or your room at that time in this might seem like a really silly question because in the introduction and in the bayou I read it mentioned.
Injuries and addiction but at that point when you had this clearance and you're shooting up, why were you an addict? That's not to say that it wasn't natural and understandable. I'm just I'm just wondering if it was a byproduct of the pain and then you became physically dependent or if there was more to it. It's complex, but one of the things I discovered in my days of competing as an athlete when I got injured, they didn't have pain medicine. So they
Give me da morning. They give me some kind of pain because I was always in pain part of it was emotional pain. I had a lot of stomach problems are GI issues because it's dress. I noticed it when I was under the influence of these pain meds that I actually felt good and I can talk to people. Other than that. I was quiet and shy and let my basketball talk to me. So it impacted me in the certain way like any addiction. So you do it you do it and then you cross that line when you become addicted you cannot not do it.
Not only does it become something that your body craves but it becomes part of a lifestyle part of an identity. So I got my first vaccination shot two weeks ago tomorrow and I remember so she went right into my arm gave me a vaccination spot and I realized that it reminded me when I started using drugs. I didn't start off just going into the vein. I started off what we call skin pop and just like getting the vaccine it is put it into your system into the skin. So it always starts with you, you know you
Get high and little bit didn't it keeps growing it's a progressive thing as a progressive disease and it kept progressing and then you start doing other things and then you start doing things in combination and then you're doing drugs. You did not even your drugs of choice or drinking things. You don't even drink you're looking to get high. So it's the emotional pain, but it's also a way of dealing with reality. So that was my thing. I was under the influence and one way form or fashion many addicts.
Don't make it out or they don't stop using until they either just continue as a functioning addict.
Until the end of their days or some catastrophe befalls them what were the deciding moment or elements that helped you to become sober. I had an incident. I think it was a March because I went to my first 12-step meeting which was AA on April Fool's Day April 1st in March. I had a strep infection, but I didn't know.
That I was sick until I went to the doctors and I had a hundred and forty degrees temperature. So I had to go in the hospital. I went in the hospital and they had an abscess on my arm and they had a treated and they wouldn't give me any pain meds because they knew I was addicted to drugs and I was withdrawing or whatever and at that point as people would say, you know, if you keep this up you're going to die and for some reason it hit me that I just couldn't do it anymore. And so I got to experiential bottom. So I call it is the elevator Theory.
You might start off at the penthouse and for some people they have to go to the sub level B2 or B3 whatever it is, but for me, I knew I was at maybe not depend house. But if I was on the 25th floor mount on the fourth floor, then I'm heading towards the third floor. So I decided to get out because you know, I just couldn't do it anymore. It was just emotionally it was like being in a place where I couldn't do it anymore, but I could not not do it because it was a habit that was in March when
I think started hitting the rock bottom and then when my friend came by took me to a meeting on April 1st, that's when I saw that there was it was a way forward there was a way out. I looked at this person and was like me but yet he was a sobriety. I went to the meeting and then I continued to use in but I started thinking about ways and then when I went into the detox, I was different but I think all of that pay dividends so even though I was around recovery going
Meetings but I was still getting high and well using drugs and alcohol, but mostly yeah, I was doing both but it was different something change when I shift it when I went to my first meeting, but then what happened when I went into the detox.
There was a thought process or inner dialogue that said the same George that goes in here can't be the same George to comes out got the same George that goes in if that George comes out he's going to get high he's going to keep doing what he's doing. So you have to be a different person. You have to be a different George and I don't know where that came from. It was just just a thought that told me that yeah, I had to do it differently. I had to be different. Where were you at the time geographically? Yeah, I was
In Dorchester, I mean actually whether I lived in Mattapan, so I was living in Boston a lot was happening. I lost my car. You know, I was just barely surviving I continue to work and everything but I had some issues and when I did that and the detox is in walking distance from my house, and so after I got out of the detox and walked home is the first time I ever saw my house my street first time you ever saw it meaning you first time. He saw it in a in a woman's Life On Life's terms where I could
really see it and not seeing it through a face or through a haze or you know, because I lived in fantasy or I was you know, hiding out in plain sight so I didn't know that until I noticed that oh, I'm really see it. You're not really see things but it was more about me really seeing life and seeing myself for the first time without having the influence of substances or hiding out in my own little inner fantasy world. How did mindfulness in any
Pasady enter your life. What happened was just to give you a little insight my spiritual experience of my first mindfulness or meditative experience that I can think of that that was powerful was that day? I got out of the detox and maybe it was the next day. I went to work when I went to work. I had like it was three weeks out of work. I had all this money waiting for me and the obsession that Luke to use the compulsion of deception that use Came Upon me.
See, this is the thing. I got triggered. And I knew that if I were to go into the restroom and the men's room and just recite the Serenity Prayer God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. I did that like a mantra just repeating it timely over and over and the obsession was removed.
And I had some stabilization. So that was my first experience. But what also happened when I got clean. I had chronic pain migraine headaches for it's very buddy ever had a migraine headache, you know, when it gets your point doesn't matter what they give you. It's just not enough and I had chronic back pain, which I had since College you sleep on the bed board and I've been going to a chiropractor since 1975. So what is that 46 years?
Yeah, I was going to Chiropractic. We you know when we're still wasn't viewed like it is today. So I had a lot of pain I was dealing with my pain administrating pain medicine not just physical but emotional and probably spiritual pain see you use the serenity prayer as this to the grounding Mantra that helps you to stabilize and then from where it is the mindfulness or meditation.
So I had to chronic pain enjoyed the same time. I was in an HMO back in those days and and they had this experimental program. So I was and I had a therapist I was working with the help me, you know, sort out stuff so I can go into the detox and I was working with him and when I got out we were talking about strategies and they had this experimental program run out of Beth Israel run by dr. John borisenko who at the time was one of the three psychoneuroimmunology just in the world.
It just means mind-body medicine and endocrine system and that sort of thing. So they had this Stress Management program. So I signed up and I had a pee and spit and they take pre and post-testing and what they did was they introduced us to this idea of taking responsibility for ourselves learning about the mind-body process, but being an active participant with the healthcare that we were getting whether it's a doctor or whatever and that's where I learned about meditation and mindfulness.
Illness and yoga and and some of the mind-body practices like Tai Chi and yoga obviously and they gave us a syllabus of bunch of books to read. I don't know if they had 20 25 books on that list. I read every one of those books and then I read books that they recommended so I'm 36 years and six months clean and sober and I have averaged over book a week during that time. So I just really got into understanding I want to understand.
How did I get clean and others don't what was the motivation? How do I enhance my ability to grow and develop and so I got really stimulated intellectually stimulated around that and that's how I got into this whole thing of mindfulness and then I was doing that and that helped with my recovery. I was already in 12 steps Mike recovery, which pretty good because I was connected to the spirit or I have my concept of God which work for me and allowed me to understand that there is a power greater than myself and that all I had to do is basically is a
Plug in the wall. All I have to do is plug into the power source, and and I would be able to do things and then as a natural outgrowth of that she suggested that I go to do a retreat at misplaced and very mascot Insight Meditation society. And so I did a weekend retreat there. Then I was introduced to the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center, which is in the in Cambridge right in the city and you could go there and do day Long's and stuff like that. So that's how I got into it. And then while I was doing that
Teacher there Larry Rosenberg is good friends with John kabat-zinn after 3-4 years of recovery. I connected with John and then I did the mindfulness-based stress reduction and then I ended up working in the center for mindfulness at that time. It was called stress reduction and relaxation program. I ended up working there for five years. I had a prison project and then we develop it in a city project, but I lived at The Meditation Center in Cambridge for six years while I was working and
Two years where I wasn't working. Well, I was just meditating and reading and studying and teaching going out from the center will get these requests from different Outlets. You could be a youth center. It could be a business like AT&T or 9x at the time and I would go out and I would teach mindfulness. I would teach meditation a Harvard Business School. So I was doing my training to become a teacher at the same time. I was continuing to grow and evolve and then when I worked at the center for mindfulness it was
Out of my job is to teach mindfulness based stress reduction, but really it was more about teaching them the same process. I had it's the inner game and how to take control of your life in the sense of being responsible and understanding how the mind and body work and how we can relate to our experience in a way that leads to more. Peace. He's freedom from Passion. That's one hell of a U-turn and self transformation, and I'm also still
Still thinking about the stacks of books that would represent. The number of books. You've read over that period of time that you mentioned. Were there any books in the beginning that really ignited you or any books that you remember really grabbing your attention because you really applied yourself in a very wholehearted way and I'm wondering what some of the catalysts might have been where any books particularly impactful.
Or conversations one that was on a New York bestseller list for like 10 years Road Less Traveled by I'm Scott Peck, but also Zen mind beginner's mind. It was a lot of books pain as motivator love is letting go of fear and there were a lot of different books, but the Bible was always in there. It's interesting. I was doing like a presentation at Lululemon for about a thousand people a couple years ago and they asked me well, what book would I recommend and I was thinking about because it's
I'm two books depends on where you are. And what books work for you and I said the Bible and I don't know where that came from. It just came out of my deep sense. And I said well that makes sense because there's one in every hotel room and there's a lot of stuff in there and I said the acronym that I remember is ask ASX and that is asking if she'll be given to you seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be open to you. It's amazing. I went to Sunday school.
Is 13 then I stopped going to church yet as I get older all of those sayings like this even mindfulness in the Bible a double minded man is unstable in all his ways and I started realizing that spiritual truth is spiritual truth whether it's comes out of the Bible or the Koran or the Kabbalah. It doesn't matter or from the Buddhist teachings. It's all that wisdom literature and philosophy. I've read a lot of my movers stuff I and thou
Ow, the way of man, I got really drawn to existentialism when I went back to graduate school and I studied Victor Franco and and search for meaning and what I call the religious existentialist like Victor Franco and Martin buber and then there's Camus Sartre kicker God if we look at the entire spectrum of books you've read I'll try to help narrow them down and then we'll move into some different lines of questioning. But what books would you say?
Aside from your own that you have gifted to other people or recommended the most to other people those people could be high-level athletes. I'm just wondering if there are a handful of books that you tend to gift the most or recommend the most to other people as in mind beginner's mind used to be one that I would recommend years ago. So it depends on on the time and who the person is, but I think more recently talked about before Mance when I'm working with clients.
It's it's is a book called the three laws of performance. This is what that looks like. It's a really good one Steve saffron and Dave lilz. Yeah, and then on becoming a leader that these are the books that I've been reading recently by Warren Bennis and one that has a lots of yesterday thing. I like about it. He says to become a leader you have to become yourself. So I've been focusing on leadership a little bit more recently. But any of the books that you know, some of the books about the teachings of the Buddha or psychology book,
I read a lot of Rollo May the meaning of anxiety or Chrome. It's a bunch of guys. Obviously Victor Frankel's book Man's Search for meaning be a good one. It's really challenging for me to answer that question because it's fluid. Yeah totally depends on the person as well.
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editions do apply
What seems like you're traveling this path? You've gone from competitive athlete.
Then to working and using simultaneously you become sober you're still working, but then the nature of yourself work certainly changes and you're developing this ability.
Cultivating this greater awareness this ability to observe your own thinking. How did Elite Sports enter the picture? How did you end up becoming connected to that world when I was working at the medical center in that debt time. We had the prison project. We were in about five Department of Corrections, Massachusetts Department of Corrections prisons, but I also taught at their training facility. I should work with staff do two cycles a year teaching the staff of mindfulness based stress reduction.
At that time John used to go to this place called Omega Institute John what happened? Jon kabat-zinn and he was out there him and his partner sake Santorelli and and they met and Phil used to do a program called Beyond basketball there. So they were there on campus at the same time and they were talking and this is Phil Jackson. So Jackson for Destiny, which lat that sounds okay with you like people will ya so yeah from the Last Dance. Yes, so
so at that summer interaction Phil was in his wife at the time June they were interested in having somebody come in and work with the bulls at could they had just won three NBA championships in a row and so they were given a presentation and then they saw me and they said well who's this guy and if you work where they said? Yeah, this is George 150 room with dr. J and he does this and they said he would be perfect for our team in so Phil and I talked and he invited me to training camp in 1993.
And in the interim we talked in July an intro Michael Jordan's father got murdered a Michael retired when I showed up in Chicago and October 1993 there were full-blown crisis and then I went in and I had pretty much doing that intervention with the team and then talking about this process of I talked about being a spiritual Warrior and just like martial art you have to train a certain way. And so I talked about martial law.
It's I studied Tai Chi for a lot of years. I brought this is in a mosh. That's what I presented to them. And then being in the zone being in flow. That's how it all started and then it just took off from there. Let's approach this from a bunch of different angles the first angle. I'd love to cover is what Phil believed the team needed or why he felt it would be well served by having
You are skill set or you there? What was it that he hope to accomplish? So we have similar philosophy you may recall when LeBron James entered into the political sphere. They told him to just dribble and shut up Phil looks at the whole person as a basketball player with a body mind heart and soul. And so they him he his job is to care for them and Beyond basketball and they had just won three NBA championships. They were dealing with the stress of
Success what happens when you become successful? Everybody comes at you. They want something he wanted them to be prepared and wanted to support them and their ability to sustain that success in the continue to grow and evolve as people not just basketball players and so bringing me in to help them deal with the stress of success because I was working in a stress reduction clinic and made a lot of sense. Yeah that I had similar backgrounds and I played basketball. I was an athlete
And I was around celebrity doctor J was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan. So even when I was in college being his roommate everywhere, he went it was like not quite like the Beatles but everybody would come in and he just couldn't go many places because he would draw a crowd. He had a certain level of Charisma and stuff. So I had my experience at the experience of in night to go visit him when he played in the ABA, so I've been around the NBA and
That sort of thing. So it made perfect sense for me to go in and to teach them how to deal with the stress of success. That was the initial thing. But of course when I had going down here, they were had an identity crisis as well as an opportunity to grow and that's what I proposed to to the team is a crisis has two meanings one meaning is danger which we get but the other meaning is opportunity. This is an opportunity to look just like me so opportunity. My substance abuse wasn't a curse. It was a
See wouldn't be who I was if I didn't experience that. How do we relate to life in a way where it empowers and inspires us? That's why you wouldn't I was down here. That's why I work so well with Joe because he didn't have my philosophy if he had their philosophy to shut up and dribble. I wouldn't be able to work with him had Phil tried other approaches to impart even if this word is appropriate is the objective mindfulness a teacher.
Tried other things before or was were you just the perfect vehicle in his mind for introducing the players to some of these skills the answer your question? Yes. That's what happened. I came in and he realized it it could work and especially nothing like baptism, you know baptism by fire. Yes. It was. Okay. How'd we do? So it's okay when everything is nice, but what's gonna happen when when anybody's bus on fire? How's he gonna do?
To be able to meet the challenge. I think that pill used to do sessions with the guys but it was obvious and he says it in these books that it made sense for somebody from the outside to come in and because I could do it in a way where they can listen to me and I had a user friendly language, you know, I could teach in any domain that was all those years going and making house calls if you were not working in the main centres or the traditional places, but going where people lived and being able to talk to you.
Them in the language, they could understand but yet give them the essence of the teachings but he has it from time to time. He's brought in yoga teaches you brought in somebody to teach them Tai Chi but the thing was I think a lot of people
In the have the training in these disciplines, but you have to meet people where they are and so they would come in and I remember having conversations with this one particular person and I told her I said they just had two and a half hour practice. You can't take him to two hours of yoga can't do it or you have to make it real for them and you have to understand that less is more might be better for you to teach them how to stretch and relax a little bit and then depending on their situation.
Duration, and you can teach them some people maybe need more standing yoga poses, whatever. So my whole idea was you got to stop with the understanding of what you can do to help the situation and you got to meet people where they were so a lot of people I think at least in some cases they come in not understanding that the context is more important than the content. That's a really that's a really really important Concept in line to underscore write the
Next is more important than the content and this in so much as what that brings to mind for me is that the tendency the very understandable impulse that a lot of people have to copy and paste whatever is working in one place to another place. But right that just doesn't necessarily work. Like you said if someone's just come out of a two-and-a-half hour practice and they're going a hundred percent. They don't have the slack in the system to do two hours of yoga and I read that as you noted.
One of the things you observed when you first started working with Chicago Bulls was that they're dealing with all types of distractions that you don't necessarily get exposed to until you're at a higher level and that the more successful a person or team becomes the more distractions there are so it actually gets in some respects very difficult to continue doing the things that got you to where you are in the first place. So they're getting requests for tickets from friends and other hangers-on right before some of them.
Important games all manners of shiny objects and obstacles and distractions. What were some of the recommendations you made or tools you suggested anything to these players so they could turn down the volume on some of these distractions. Yes. The thing is understanding that whatever you're doing. You got to be fully present to it and understand what are you doing? And what are the consequences? What is it costing you?
How much energy can you allow for this activity versus the next activity? I would say a lot of things to the one thing. I would say to them is don't believe the hype. So what does that mean? That means that when you go get interviewed they tell you you're the greatest thing since sliced bread you say thank you and you just smile. And if they tell you you're the biggest choke artist of all time, we just thank them and smile. So it's more about how they regulate people and just not give energy to that. It's just really understand.
There was really important you have to understand that even though you have your family with you, even though there's certain things that are going on. You have to create a kind of a cocoon for yourself to be ready to play. And so your rituals your rituals the day the game and so I would talk to them about rituals, but it was really more about there's no such thing as multitasking.
That you just do one thing at a time. So if you have a process where you're going to write tickets for a certain amount of time at certain time during the pregame thing, then you do that. Then you set that aside. Didn't you have to have your space and time for your Readiness for you to get ready to play but I didn't really get into that. They'd have to ask me about it back in those days was really different. It was like they had volunteered. Whereas now the analogy I would use is
It was like lazy fear the ones that wanted to do it find once it didn't that's fine. But I have the analogy of if you have somebody out in the rain.
And at least go out there with an umbrella and ask them if they want to come in, you know, you just meet them where they are and then if you can kind of bring them in but some people they Thrive I mean everybody's different some people like quiet some people want, you know rousing music. It's different like Dennis Rodman in the last guy didn't drive me but it's really more about them. It was really more about teaching them from moment to moment how they're relating to the experience and understanding the quality of mine.
Did they have the money state that they have and how to just be in the moment and be clear about what you're doing and what you're getting and the willingness to adjust and adapt like you said what get you here is just what that is it got you here. But to go beyond that you have to let go to grow and you have to be willing to develop other habit patterns other ways of being to go they continue to evolve in the grow. So it's really more about the inner game and them getting clarity about what
What and who they are being in the how to develop the me, but the we have to be the context in which to me is operating its let's talk about meeting people where they are because that person in the rain, you know, you might have not to stretch the metaphor too far, but you might have one person who is doing jumping jacks and smiling one person who's huddling in a corner another person who's who knows drink it out of a puddle. There are so many different personalities, right and
I was reading a piece in the Boston Globe.
And man, I mean you the types of testimonials that you have the belief that other people ascribe to you is just a credible II and I'll just read a little piece here. This is from the Boston Globe a piece in 2015. This is Kobe Bryant. He's basically saying I'm going to paraphrase here. So he's saying that many people tried to get him to meditate Kobe Bryant once told an interviewer quote, but I couldn't sit still for 20 minutes under the tutelage of Phil Jackson a Mumford. However meditation became a key.
Key to game preparation for Bryant and for his teammate and Feud counterparts Shaquille O'Neal there weren't a lot of things that Shaq and Kobe agreed on says Lazenby another person in this piece, but they both agreed on the effectiveness of George mountford. Okay. Could you speak to the differences or similarities in teaching say Michael Jordan versus Kobe versus Shaquille O'Neal some of the tools in your toolkit. Like how did you approach those seemingly very different personalities.
When I say talk about meeting people where they are. I let the wisdom in the mindfulness dictate what I do I have to get insight. I have to get a Clarity of okay. What's the context? How do I deal with this person one size does not fit all it has to be a specificity of really getting clear but also getting clear my mind which my intention but at the same time it's just going in and just figuring out how to relate to them in a way that makes sense you think about about the great spiritual teachers like Jesus or Buddha?
They talk in Parables or if they're going to talk to Carpenters. They're going to use carpentry examples. If you're going to talk to people who are bricklayers or stonemasons you're going to use that language to express the essence of what you're talking about. So when you talk to people about if you create a vision of possibility where you say, hey your challenge with this or you want to achieve this you might consider doing this because just going to enhance you and by the way, you know, I did this with
This person or you know, I know the leech they do that. Yeah, I've been with Jade J. Dr. J. I'm talking about and he you know, I know for a fact that certain practices people have this certain ways of being that you can have so some people auditory some people are visual some people can't aesthetic. So I had to meet them in that modality where they can take in information. So a lot of it is connecting with them. I don't know how to say it and then and then feeling your way through just being
Being present with it and relating to them as each individual and understanding how or work for them. When I first started doing this. I didn't like standing still I used to do more walking meditation and sitting or do more tight chill more yoga, but I talked about sometimes you got to move your way in the Stillness.
I like that. That's great. And then some kind and you have Stillness movements my teaching my sifu used to talk about this movement and Stillness and Stillness and movement. So you have to understand my modality is more like physical. So, how do I move myself in the Stillness? Can you give any examples any specific examples or stories related to working with say Kobe or Shaq? I'm curious to know what this looks like in practice if any
moments or stories or examples come to mind. It's interesting because I spent a lot of my time this just sitting there observing most of it is observing and getting a central where people are and then finding the moment when I can go in and give them a teaching or talk to them about something that dealing with that. I had a conversation with Kobe early on and my first year I work with them when I said the Kobe the best way to score is not to try to score.
Because I saw that he was trying really hard and so years ago when he invited me to go down to Newport Beach and hang out with him. I asked him about that and he said that he remembered everything. I told him he has like a photographic memory, but it's picking the time to really ask him how they're seeing things or talk to them about. Okay. I know you want to achieve this think about this.
a lot of people think that the practice of mindfulness the practice of Insight Meditation is just sitting and being still is a big part of it is is cultivating wisdom and talking about integrity talking about walking your talk, but also understanding how to cultivate a sense of compassion for yourself and others and how to I guess love is the way I would talk about it you when you love something you lay before you make it grow and so talking about just hard just talking about
I woke if this is what you're interested in. Here's an application is a way of thinking of looking at it and you might consider these things. Could you explain what the dizziness of freedom is? I've heard you use this phrase before? Yes, and it really stuck with me. Could you please explain what this is and how you see it freedom is not free. If you will a soda dizziness of Freedom. It's because you're
you're on You're On The Road Less Traveled or you're on Shaky Ground the ground you're on is moving to the degree that and I'm going back to 1846 Soren Kierkegaard. And he said that one side of the coin is freedom or potential the heads. The other side is anxiety or uncertainty. He called it the alarming possibility of being able when you change a behavior or a habit you have to
Is anxiety you have to experience uncertainty. You have to experience discomfort because we're comfortable with where we are. And so when we grow the only way that happens is you got to be able to be a little bit uncomfortable. You got to be beyond your comfort zone. You guys have a discomfort Zone where you go into and then because we adapted things then you will adapt so it's possible you get comfortable with being uncomfortable. So the dizziness of freedom is like okay before when you
Then have freedom you did the same thing. You don't have to think you don't have to reflect. You don't have to take a risk. You don't have to be vulnerable. But now you're being freedom in you're going through a different door. You're trying something else. Then the dizziness of it is you do this thing where you could do that thing. How do you make a choice out of all of these options and you want to have more option because if you only have two options on some level is restricting, but on another level is yes, either or so when you start understanding that this is there's no meaning and
Reverse other than what you give it or even though you could do this thing. You can also do that thing. And when you do this thing you no longer have those things. So if I have five choices I make one I lose for so now I'm in here now. I'm worried you all did I make the right choice? So the uncertainty it's a military term. They use vuca vuca from moment to moment things are volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous. So you have to embrace uncertainty and ambiguity.
Unity that's part of the life. This is what life is about it's about saying yes, and yes, it's frustrating is unpleasant and it's okay. This is it when I grow this is what comes with it. If I achieve my goals you look at the positive, but there's a negative. The other side is your in a rowboat with people you change they got to change they got to move and I want to move what they got you in a box and now you're out of the box. So now they gotta be for you who you are they going to keep
In the box and get mad at you. So for whatever reason but it always comes down to discomfort being uncomfortable. The nervous system is why this way if it's pleasant, we move approach some pleasant we avoid and if it's neither with indifference be spaced out with the nervous system does so when you impute meaning on its something and say it's going to be great even though it's uncomfortable. I know on the other side. This is the only way out is through
Then once I commit to that and I have the experience of going through it and then come into a another level of Grace of ease of Peace. Then I continued to do that. That's what I talk about is superpower trust you need trust but when you can verify it through insight to information through experience now and it goes from confidence to conviction. And then now you you get on a beneficial cycle where things keep getting rich get richer because you know,
That if you learn and you achieve is going to generate enthusiasm and you're going to want to learn more you're going to want to commit to it because you know that in this is what they'll each do they see those things as challenges. Oh, this is great. This is an opportunity for me to express myself that mindset is the growth mindset, but it's also pursuing Excellence. Let's talk about growth and excellence and I'd love to frame it through a contrast that
that I've read you make and you've written about this and there are examples of this on George monster.com thee or a barrier breakthrough versus the Improvement trap. Could you explain for people what these two things are incremental improvements means you dis improving but when you have a paradigm shift then it's totally different because when you improving something, okay, I'm going to improve this shot. I'm going to do it so that can be a trap. It can be helpful, but it could be a trap because you're
Looking to improve instead of looking to break out as Stephen Covey says every breakthrough is a break with so you you have to change the Paradigm. So you have to change how you see yourself. So if you keep so Michael Jordan's when did he say when he hit the winning shot against Georgetown and ncaa's he said I went from Mike Jordan and Michael Jordan see them saying so he had a paradigm shift realize. Okay. I'm great not
I'm going to be great or I can be great. I'm a great player. I see myself as Michael Jordan capable of doing everything when you have a breakthrough. That means you're changing how you see things and when you change how you see things then things change. So when you change how you see things the things you look at change, the constant Improvement is great to have Improvement but a breakout has to do with you could be improving and being a little pain.
And it's good for the little Prime but the really break out the really go beyond that. It's you have to just have crazes initiative. It's nice. I can hit singles all day on playing baseball just get a signal but you want to be able to not only hit a single but hit whatever the heck you want hit home runs hit hit whatever. So I would say the vision of possibilities bigger and one versus the other where it's keeping you playing small and it's comfortable versus being big and having a breakout right having
that complete kind of shift of perspective in and it sounds like particularly as as you mentioned in the Mike Jordan to Michael Jordan. It's a shift in how one views themselves. Are there any other examples that you can think of things you've seen in athletes or others that have
Really stuck in your mind that stand out in your memory other breakthroughs or breakouts like this. We're not over a long period of time but in an instant or in a single game in a single practice, maybe over a week or a month. You see a real Quantum Leap in someone you've worked with one of the athletes. I work with at Boston College name is Troy Bell.
Haesu a point guard. I think he goes to record and BC for the most points scored Troy as of sophomore. We played in the biggies. He got Big East player of the year. He was cold play of the year with Murphy from Notre. Dame is junior year.
Who is kind of okeydoke then? He came back and his senior year and he won played a year out, right? And as a matter of fact you saw over his game was going he was increasing and then it just took off and January and the senior year. He just went to a whole other level with his play so much ODed Sports Illustrated came and interviewed him when they told me says you're out, you know work with George and you know, just a mental game is all that stuff that we were working on.
All of a sudden it just took off in a linear perspective. You say one plus one equals two.
But in a nonlinear for right brain, if you left right handed 1 plus 1 equals 6.
You get a jump. So that happened with Troy the team he was playing on Boston College Eagles asking his team was my roommate from college one year. He was six and twenty one six wins 21 losses the next year. The team was 11 and 19 and out of those 19 losses 12 losses came in a row when they lost in the last possession of the game.
The next year as same team, which you played 16 games in the league so big he's you play 16 games that first year where they were 11 and 19 it won three games and lost to our team the next year. They won 13 games lost three. So there was twenty seven and five it kept going and then it just took off I could say the same thing same thing about the Bulls, you know, when I want 72 games, you know, they struggled they go through it didn't you take off?
You chip away at it but because slow motion gets you there quicker or is like The Tortoise and the Hare you just keep doing what's in front of you. You stay in locked in you stay in Susie a think you do what you have to do then something happens. It happens a lot of the time you just break out you have a breakout because you're not just improving your looking and these guys had a vision so that team there was twenty seven and five that year. We had what they call a European trip, so we're in the gym.
In August before they go and I'm hanging around. I'm listening and the guy just saying, you know, we've been getting beat by 40 by all these teams any team that comes in here this year. We going to beat them by 20 that's self image. That's a shift in Consciousness. Right? And it's very concrete to very specific. Yeah, and you know what their record was that year 17 and oh and they won by 22 and a half points. I'd be curious to know is since you've sort of tracked.
Yourself and you're sort of development over a long period of time if you look back at the younger George say in the first year of working with high-level athletes. Is there any advice that you would give him now just with the benefit of hindsight? I would tell him that focus on self observation teaching them how to observe the experience and a uncritical way where they can start to see okay if I'm shooting free throws are
Talk about shooting free throws when I go up and I shoot a free-throw. I want to be able to observe or what happened. You know, I missed a free throw. A lot of times people say shoot. I miss a free throw. I want them to be able to say, okay, so I'm observing it. So when I shot the free-throw, what did I notice that was off that I use my feet that I keep my elbow and did I stick it and it just a matter of like, okay. So what do I need to change? OK I need to stick it next time if you go back to Michael Jordan.
Playing in 1998 against the Utah Jazz in the fourth quarter. He was shooting shots and they were short. Yeah. So what adjustment did he make so when he shot the shot he stuck it he explains sticking it to people visually. Yeah more extension through. Yeah, but it's really more like sticking that like this like like follow through follow through right? What he did was he made the adjustment. My shot is short. So to get it up I have to
Yes up and stick it so you see in real time. He'll make an adjustment. But how does that work? So I talked about the forays little forays have to do with awareness.
The kind of awareness that you could just a notice, you know this uncritical. It's mindfulness. You just noticed like me remind you you're aware of what happened. Okay. I'm shooting my jump shot and it's flat then the acceptance of it. That's the hot challenging part because sometimes we said, oh man, you know, I just rush it or whatever. You're not taking responsibility for it and say yeah, I don't like it. It sucks. It feels bad. But once I embrace and say this is what happened. This is no the truth and truth shall make you free.
You know that it was short and then was the compassionate action passionate action is what? Okay, what do I need to do to fix it? I need to stick it. That's all I need to do is just follow through then the assessment afterwards is so there's awareness acceptance which is the big challenging thing action compassionate action and assessment what worked what didn't work and then then go back to it. So if you're practicing meditation you're sitting in your notice that
at
You're sitting but your mind keeps thinking about let's do what happens. A lot of people. I'm listening to a song on the radio. Like they say she stopped me up by Mick Jagger or whatever and you heard in radio and you're in your meditation and they stopped me up during the day and it keeps going in the more you try to avoid it. It keeps staying there. Then you go through the sitting and you say well the whole time we're struggling with this damn. Sorry. I couldn't get rid of it. The awareness is this song
Song or this. It could be a thought pattern or whatever we could be something we're worried about like somebody sick. You're more worried about how operation went or something like that. So the instructions are when you get distracted this go back to your breath will be with the body, but you spend all the time doing that but it's a struggle and it's hard to do it the awareness of that didn't acceptance of yeah, I couldn't do it but then the compassionate action is okay. So George, what do you do? Here's what I teach so if this becomes so much
of a distraction instead of fighting it
just turn your attention towards it and that becomes the object. What is this and so by not resisting it by looking at the you know, so what is it? What does it feel like, you know the song Would you know, what does it feel like in my body? What is it? And why is it this song is staying at maybe there's something about stop me up Jimi Hendrix Who Knows? Oh, you know the Power of Love where it could be whatever it is, but then look at it, but we just noticed that it's just thinking
And we just instead of resisting it we turn attention to it and we open it out. Okay. What is this? You just let it be there the acceptance and then by doing that you'll notice that you'll come down and then because all you're doing is taking this instead of being attached to this object. You just take whatever comes up. Okay, this is your look. Let's just go with that nose just song you just focus on that and you would still get concentrated because you focus on one.
Nothing, so that's where you know the awareness the acceptance but if I'm going through this every day for five days in a row, if it's not that as something else that I'm struggling I just can't stay on Arabic. What I'm going to do is say I can't do this. This is not for me. I'm not able to do it instead of saying no, it's just noticing what's happening you're distracted and it's instead of fighting it. Just let it become your object of awareness just part of the process and then when you do that, then you're going to get to this place of calm then you can loud.
Go and then you can just come back to wherever you are. But you have to be aware of it. You have to accept it as happening and I suck as a meditator. That's all judgment. It's awareness without being critical or without judgment. And then or compassionate action is just noticed. Okay. Let's see what my intentions to maybe the mind is telling us something and you focus on that then you come back and then you notice that this more ease and so then your assessment of it is what worked what didn't work. What did you change?
JH so now you have that ability so it could be a sound it could be aching your body.
Now you have the same thing. So you're aware of your breathing. But there's this pristine burning and maybe as anxiety and you have this tightness in your chest and you're like this. So instead of avoiding that you open to it you focus on that say what is this and can I open and can I just breathe and just let it be there. What's the sensation? Okay, so it's tightness, but then at some point it's going to change its going to dissipate because I'm not fighting it then I can move on so that's what I mean by.
For a raise. Yeah, I like it. I like the forays into the you know, the examples that you gave of turning. Let's just say what people might consider a problem into the object makes me think of this. It's basically a fortune cookie that I was given at one point to carry my wallet or that I ended up carrying my wallet and it said that which hinders your task is your task and I think it's it's a very helpful framework. This for a is
Especially for beginning meditators because it's so easy without that type of perspective to become very frustrated and to beat yourself up. It's very valuable very valuable approach. So thank you for that. Yeah sure. You might give you an example of story that illustrates, please great. Okay, so I was working in these prison Norfolk County House of Correction. Actually the little tidbit is there that's what Malcolm X did his time in that prison. I actually saw him.
Jacket and his trackage rights. Oh I said worked in there. And so I go in there to teach this meditation class or this meditation yoga class, but meditation class and I have all these copious notes. This is when I was really who and I was going to give them a sermon or a lecture or dhamma talk whatever you want to call is going to be awesome. I got all these notes in there and everything. So in this also goes into what Bruce Lee talks about be like water I go in there and then when I get in the class I realized that I love
32 students 28 of them are Spanish-speaking only so the awareness the acceptance. Okay. What's a compassionate action? Okay, I got to interpret I got to make this shit real simple. I gotta just just give them the basic things breathe in breathe out whatever, you know, it's something about being in the present and what that looks like and that's when all of note went out the window. Yeah, and I just had to just be like why just okay.
Is what is here? How can I work with it just to I won't say surrender actually embrace it and then generate the Hope. What can I do? How can I still have to keep it simple but I can just show up and do things and so that applies and then we can fast forward to if you like stories. I'll give you another story. Well one second. How did that talk turn out it turned out it turned out great. Yeah because they got something and I got something and I realized that what it told me was.
Especially working in prison. You have no idea what the hell is going to happen you could be doing and then the alarm goes off and everybody gets locked out. Right, right. So how did it go? It went great because I gave them what they can hear. I meant them where they were but the main thing was I wasn't rigid. I wasn't attached to my wanting to force something on them and say okay, they're not going to be able to hear this. So what can I do? How can I be of service and so I just went right into it, but
Laughs because I said all that preparation and it just kind of goes and so that's the same thing. So whatever happens can we say yes to it. Can we embrace it and then generate the Hope or say? Okay. What can we do? What's the next play? This is an opportunity for us to figure out what we need to do and maybe if we don't know well this start with just sitting and just being present with what's going on. I had a friend of mine his name is bolos off he passed away, but he was doing the thing in prison and he decided to
Bring them in in the women together and when he did that it was two other class and he was it and you know what he did. He said I meditated right in the middle of them and they all get quiet. He had no idea what the hell is to do. So he Savages guys sit and think about it, you know, see what happened and they all looked at him and said well, how could he do that? Do you see anything do days and I'm guarantee you if you think about your experience or even a listeners if you think about a time when you were able to just say, okay, this is what
It is what can I do? How can I relate to it? That's what it is. So awareness acceptance. Once you accept it, then you can do something about it. So you're not deny or you're not blaming somebody you're saying. Okay. This is what it is. How can I do about it? So those forays can apply any time anywhere? That's a great story. What are you most excited about these days personally personally, I'm excited about the fact that that I get to do what I was put here to do and be a
service and just show up. I'm in its journey of Discovery where I have no idea what's going to happen with covid and and all the other things. My job is just like I said the show up and to be myself which in my case is I want to be loving I want to be compassionate but I want to be helpful this year. I'll be myself and have fun. It's like, okay, so I had to be like why so whatever is coming. Can I embrace it and create a container to hold it and at the same time generate? Okay, how
Can I relate to this in a way that inspires motivates moves is helpful. Yeah, it is they're certainly a world of uncertainty right now. It's a ripe opportunity for a practicing a lot of what you discuss and its really highlighted. How much is outside of our control? Yes, but at the same time on sell you the guy the scientists it came up with this stress of life in the stress reaction and all of that is his belief in this also my belief that when the crisis or when this
challenge that's when I latent abilities Express themselves. It's like seeing everything so we know this that you how you can predict how somebody doesn't a job three things what they call positive genius or optimism and hope second thing is social support and the third thing is seeing a crisis as a challenge. And so when we can do that now we generate we stimulate these latent abilities. Oh, oh, this is great. This is an opportunity to
Show up and the really be helpful. So that's what I'm excited about is really doesn't matter. What happens on somewhere. What matters is can I create space between stimulus and response and that space? Can I be loving can I be compassionate? Can I be wise and make wise choices? And can I live according to what my core values are love compassion connection that sort of thing and that no matter what happens I need to train myself so I can keep showing up but the good news.
Is is because I share a giveaway what I have I get more of it and if I want to learn something I teach it George. I want to commend you for the work you do in the world and also the fact that you share what you've learned and your story and the tools not just with the celebrities that are known worldwide, but that you've also dedicated a substantial part of your life to a
populations people who are looking for new ways to change and new chapters and transitions into a better way of being and I just think that's really a manifestation of
love and you and it's beautiful to witness that and to know that there are people like you offering that so I just want to thank you. Thank you and these people like you that they give me a opportunity to share my experience strength and hope and it's also wonderful because I know the impact you've been having on folks and continue to have so I want to say ditto to you, but I'm just happy man. I'm just happy that that I can just be here and have this
And full conversation about how do we live in the solution? Not the problem and that how do we access the fact that we are already perfect whole and complete in terms of being a masterpiece or Divine spark. We just don't know it or we don't show it. I think that is
that is an excellent piece to anchor on as we as we come to a close George. Is there anything else that you would like to say any question you like to post to the audience or request you'd like to make of people listening before we wrap up. Yes my wish for everyone is for everyone to really understand. They have a masterpiece in the how to know ourselves so we can be ourselves so we can express ourselves so we can share ourselves. So to Sharon is really important and just understanding that we have a masterpiece and I have
My book I have my online course. I have my YouTube channel and you have all sorts of resources My Hope Is that we all understand that we have to take personal responsibility as an inner game and if we don't like what we are experiencing we can change it, but we have to be willing and also not letting blame a denial prevent us from taking responsibility and being able to
To share the focus on the solution. So if we're going to criticize somebody it's one thing to say, I don't like this. It's another thing to say it and then give them my option is helpful very different worlds of difference and that goes for criticizing other people or criticizing yourself. It applies in so many ways George people can find you at George Montford.com certainly on Instagram will link to all these things in the show notes as well at Georgetown mom for Twitter at GT.
Mumford and they can find the mindful athlete course certainly on your website. Your book is the mindful athlete subtitle secrets to Pure Performance and to everyone listening. We'll link to everything that we've discussed including the YouTube channel and so on in the show notes at Tim dot blog forward slash podcast as per always and George. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. Appreciate you and to everybody listening until next time. Thank you for tuning in.
Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take
off. Number
one. This is five. Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email for me? Every Friday? Is that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend and five? Bullet? Friday's a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit.
Somehow dug up in the the world of the esoteric as I do it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends for instance and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that check it out. Just go to four hour workweek.com. That's four hour workweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you'll get the very next one and if you sign up
I hope you enjoyed this episode is brought to you by tonal. That's Tio Nal. Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. That's the tagline from their website folks. So it gives you the one sentence summary by eliminating traditional metal weights total can deliver 200 pounds of resistance in a device smaller than a flat screen TV. It mounts right on your wall with no floor space required. I've had one for a few months now after a number of close friends recommended tunnel to me and it allows me to
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