This is the grounded podcast. Number seven with Echo Charles and me Jocko willing so grounded podcast. This could become a whole like we could just do what we're about to do from now until forever because we're entering a realm of the world. That's kind of crazy. It's the world of
YouTube
comments. Yes,
but we had a video that came out that was an excerpt from Jocko podcast, which is the other podcast that we do. And the book The the extra was called Jiu-Jitsu wrestling versus Jiu-Jitsu and you know, we had a conversation and it was a good conversation, but I wouldn't say it was a comprehensive, right? It wasn't, it wasn't comprehensive. There's a lot of things that were.
That maybe I was
thinking one thing, but I didn't explain it. Well or you were thinking something and we didn't connect on it or whatever. So anyways, as I read through the comments, there was a lot of comments in there that I thought. Well, you know, that's the legitimate point or hey, that makes sense or actually know if I add this thing to it, then you wrong, or I'm wrong or whatever. So, I thought it would be interesting, just to kind of look at some of these comments. Yeah. And and just discuss them a little bit.
To add some more context to them because Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling are really complementary. I mean, they are beautiful. When mixed together. I believe the two of them mix together is one of the most all powerful things in the world. So actually, it's too bad. That the subject matter is Jiu-Jitsu versus wrestling when actually, I believe in Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling.
Because clearly wrestling takedowns are the best of all takedowns, by the way.
I will even say better than Judo takedowns because well, Judo made the double Leg Takedown illegal, why? Because it was so effective that wrestlers will go in there and win. Now, look the again. This doesn't mean I don't do those awesome. Yes. I've talked about that. We did a pot. We did it entire podcast on Judo. Yeah. And
Exclaimed how wonderful Judo is, which it is, but the resting takedowns are kind of superior. Now. Look, if you're wearing Aggie, totally different, right. Judo takedowns are a lot better. Well, they're closer to wrestling takedowns. Anyways, so here's some of the comments. Let's just get into some of them. This guy says this, I'm a wrestler and it's like this. He's authoritarian about
Right wrestling will give the aggression the muscle memory to stay on your feet. Never be on your back. Get off the ground quick, as well as strength and cardio from wrestling. BJJ will give you submissions that let wrestling lakhs to finish a fight. Excellent work. I will agree with his authority. Do you not? You're looking at me, like, in a strange way.
Well, triggered me with the wrestling's, just better than Judo kind of
thing. Okay. Yeah, it is a lot more as a strong statement. Okay, that was too strong for
say that that's the route.
Of the look, I was giving you that's the root of it. Then it's like one of those things where if that's true little bit more to that as well. Where do you think doesn't necessarily only give you the finishes or whatever it gives you functionality whether you land on your back or not. So, wrestling connection, I mean wrestling generally speaking. Yes, looked it's going to depend on the individual to so generally speaking. Okay. Wrestling will keep you off your back. Yes. Well, I have a large assistance,
right? Keeping you out.
Ever, if you turn to your stomach, yes, you're just getting your eating sugar. Right? If you wind up on your
back there. That's when wrestlers have issues. One of the one of the Situation's were wrestlers. Generally speaking will have issues if they do wind up on their back. Yes, and it's a problem. It's one either. They can't function at all. If the Jiu-Jitsu guy can keep him on his back or yeah, like how you said, he'll turn over and then exposes back which is it's a big that's a big No-No. So I think there's sort of that as well.
Yeah, a couple couple other comments, be JJ's fight. Does not end when you're on your back.
Yeah, he's saying the same thing that you are. I came to another comment. I came from the true old school wrestling days. When your coach had better, not find you lying on your back or you did suffer a grueling session of Sprint's, Etc. That's pretty cool. You're just not allowed to be on your back. No matter what. That's legit. That's legit. Right there. Here's a comment says Echo is such as softly spoken unit.
Wrestling is just grappling without the submissions. Add some missions in your dangerous. Again. That's cool. And I get it. But like you just pointed out wrestling. You don't, you don't fight off your back. So that's a whole. Well, actually it's a little bit wrong. You do fight off your back, you fight, not to be on your back, which is really, which is really, that's why it's hard. When I go with Taylor when I go with sarek who are good wrestlers, it's hard. I want to put them on their back cross side. It's hard to get them there.
I mean, they necessarily give up their back, kind of, but they're also using that as a transition to get out.
So, not to mention. They're doing Jiu-Jitsu, by the way. Yes, they're doing Jiu-Jitsu
true. Judo is often neglected as an alternative to wrestling for Jiu-Jitsu players.
True again. I guess I just need to like call retract my statement, right? I go. No, I'm not. I'm not wholly retracted though. Listen, fundamentally. Look, if you put a wrestler versus a judo player and it's to take down contest. I'm leaning towards the wrestlers, going to take the book, take you to do player down and I dig it. Okay, that's, that's what I'm saying. Yes, and then is it down? Or is it 10/10 know? It might not be 10. Are
you saying pure wrestling period?
Yes, okay,
pure wrestling Pierre Judo and then you got to say noogie is once you add the ghee on it, some wrestlers have a hard time adapting to that. Yeah,
so you made a good point with where they outlawed the double leg because of that. But then again, that then that just sort of goes back to like training right? Where Judo is like okay in this particular sport like we this is how our training Traditions have been for so long or whatever either we adapt the training to like all
Takedowns like this or not should do which yeah, you think? So. And that's sort of what Jiu-Jitsu does, but, you know, in a judo scenario or apparently in the Judith scenario. They were like a rather than adapt training and make takedowns part of, like Judo, maybe their tradition was too strong or whatever. They just out lauded and
competition, which is weak. And then, and I've talked to Judo players high-level Judo players that like, yeah, that was a bad move. It's not good for the sport, just like it's not good for the Jiu-Jitsu sport to outlaw.
Reaping. Yeah, on the knee which sounds like this horrible thing is totally normal and you should be allowed to do it. Yeah, so there's that, this guy says, I was the smallest Marine in my unit and I beat everyone matched up with me with no official grappling experience. Besides being an All-State wrestler. I never knew how much resting help me until I was against some of the biggest Murray drama. Yeah. That's. That's a given. Yeah, you know, that's a given, that's
legit. Yeah, even if you know, Jiu-Jitsu, let's say, you know,
Kind of drawing on random training experience, where even as a purple belt and you go against a brand new guy who's like under one year, but he's has really good wrestling. It's gonna be way harder to tap. That guy out. Just wait harder in general. So that's how like, yeah, if you get guys who go in like new and but aside from just the newness of it. Yeah, one guy has like a book or on top of the newness one that has a lot of wrestling. Oh, yeah. That's a
dominant. Well check this guy out. Okay. Here's another comment. I know a high-level wrestler.
A full-ride success in University, success against International level opponents upon beginning BJJ. He was immediately effective at gaining positional control over everyone. Black belts included in noogie and marginally less successful with Gigi. He wasn't often submitting. The high-level guys. He knew how to he knew, how to squeeze someone's neck. But with a point system of BJJ, he was winning more often than not. He would he would himself a case to get caught and triangles and armbars in the ghee, he had difficulty passing.
From for guard within weeks. He was consistently winning with noogie often V in submissions camera and darce. Within a few months. He was choking High belts with their own lapels. This was at white belt. Everyone felt much better when he was promoted, take an equally level high level, equally high level, BJJ student. And he wouldn't have nearly the same success among wrestlers. Even given much more time. A quality wrestling base lends itself to learning other disciplines better than any other sport edit all. Add that one day. No,
Oggy.
And the high-level belts quickly had, no qualms going for heel hooks. Okay, I I pretty much agree with this. Yeah, bro. Because, here's the other thing, this guy, this wrestler that he's talking about was an athlete. Yeah, right. This guy's a Collegiate athlete that had success against International. This news, a
badass. He said straight up full right? That's what. Yeah, the full ride and he said
success against that's means beating International level opponents. This is not a normal human. No, right. This guy's a mute.
And and he's and he wrestled his whole life, right? Of course. He's going to look, no one's denying this. I think this is just a great comment. This is why you should have your kids wrestle.
Yeah, except for the last like kind of what are you his conclusion when he was like, oh, yeah, since it applied to this one, like spectacular, guys. Okay, guys to everybody.
Yes, correctly, wouldn't, because let's face it. I've gone with wrestlers good wrestlers that don't adapt well to jiu jitsu and they are not hard to
It and I
see a purple belt submitting. A high-level wrestler because they don't have the right kind of adaptability. Yeah, they don't have that in their
brain. Yeah, and that's a big part of it where he was like, he's choking guys with like and then he named these like real basic moves. But if you're a guy and this real generally speaking to wear, if you're an athlete especially in like wrestling or grappling and whatever, and you just make one, two, three, four adjustments. If you can pay attention and make those little
Mints and still remain a, flea remain. Like all your skills from before Remain the way, the way they're going to obviously, yeah. Oh, yeah, you can find that kind of success, but she would like, do you ever seen these guys every once in a while, like you'll get these like badass wrestlers and they'll come in and they'll just Guillotine everybody because they're used to that front headlock. That's part of wrestling, you know, and they'll just all let me just smell a small adjustment, do it to everybody and that gives them practice. And
then you throw the cowcatcher in there, which is another wrestling move. The red. The cowcatcher to the to, the culprit row.
Right, that's a wrestling move all day long. I see kids use that on the wrestling mats and all of a sudden, the wrestling match to become the wrestling, mats of Justice. Here's another good point. My when my daughter was wrestling, she would have, like, I got to know, you know, all the other girls that wrestled, that were good wrestlers and most of the girls, this is in San Diego, which San Diego has really good wrestling for boys, for sure. There's something
Some high schools in San Diego that are recognized kind of across the country. As really good wrestling. Actually. Where Sergeant Powell a high school. They're recognized, everybody knows Poway wrestling but the girls. So there's, there's some areas in San Diego. Where you have the long-term plan, where, you know, beat kids are resting really young. Most when my daughter was wrestling when she was like, a Junior and senior in high school, the other girls that were really, really good, almost every single one of them as I would talk to him.
They almost all came from Jiu-Jitsu and then they get to high school. There's no Jiu-Jitsu in high school. So they wrestle and then all of a sudden, they realize oh, all this grappling stuff that I've been doing for the last six years, you know, it all kind of applies and with boys. It's the opposite, boys go from
They go from wrestling to Jujitsu, you know, because they get done with high school if they don't go to college, like, what am I going to do now? Well, you're gonna, you're gonna, you know, do Jujitsu so good. Good Jujitsu summarized instructor. Okay, here's how you choke someone on the ground. Me. But how do I get them on the ground?
Wrestling sunrise.
Instructor. Okay. Here's how to take someone down me. Okay, what do I do from there? And that's, that's pretty funny.
Yeah, obviously that pants it. Yeah, and it's, you know, a little bit of a comical comical calling us. Yeah.
What else wrestling all day?
Wrestlers are tough. I have such a hard time with wrestlers just check. That's why what you can give the here's the other thing you give your kids when you get them into wrestling is your they're going to get competition. They're going to get competition and you're going to compete. You're going to go compete, you know, five times on the weekends you're going to do five matches on the weekends. And then you're going to wrestle a dual meet during the week and you're going to do that for whatever three straight months and then you're going to go to Regionals.
Sectionals and regionals and state like it's, there's a lot of competition and everyone's good. So that's good. Okay, I was a wrestler for six years and reasonably good at it. The entire debate between these two forms of the best sport in the world seems pointless. If you achieve a certain amount of success in either form of grappling, you are one of the most elite athletes in the world. You have a combination of strength, speed agility, mental toughness, that surpasses the very top competitors and in other sports all this guy's is
You get after it, you are the toughest of the tough, the baddest of the bad. Anybody willing to step on the mat where, you know, with complete certainty. The other guys going to try and rip you limb from Limb and they have trained hard for years just to come whip your ass right here today. They're only reason for even showing up to take you down and stomp your dream of reaching the top, my friend, anybody who is willing to face that down and fight back as a badass, son of a gun hats off to you regardless of what form of grappling you choose.
Right,
it's true. And it could be argued that like wrestling is harder. It is harder than Jiu-Jitsu where and it's but it's harder in a certain
way. I was going to say because you can't necessarily say that because you know, some people don't like striking like even at MMA fighter, an MMA fighter that he does not look forward to sparring. He does not look forward to it at all. It doesn't look forward to getting hit. Other people.
Other MMA fighters, they love sparring. They would rather Spartan do anything other MMA fighters. The last thing they want to do is that grappling practice that Shark Tank, they don't want that at all. So, there's some people that the grind of wrestling would be easier than the grind of Jiu-Jitsu. There's some people vice versa. However, that being said, if the broad statement is wrestling, is air quotes harder, I'm going to have to say, yes, it's hard to work harder, work harder grind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's
Jujitsu seems like harder because it's like this never ending like Chasm of like problems and trying to solve them and once you solve one, it reveals two more. It's like just endless endless. So that seems hard and it seems like. And again, this is speaking from someone with very limited wrestling experience like actual wrestling wrestling. It seems like in this is remember vanilla. Gorilla Ryan. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, so he would always tell me these, these types of things.
We're like no you meet force with force in, right, you know, like it sounds like the solution to wrestling is go harder, like a lot of the time for sure. Maybe sometimes some slight, some timing stuff and stuff like that. And this is what he's telling me, but it was like, yeah, I know you meet force with force and that's where, you know, the wrestling is kind of thing like head-to-head. Boom. Boom! Just not like that. So it'll it seems a lot more simple in that way wrestling does. But the work, it takes like you roll it with a wrestler, but I get ready to work. If you want to fend him off and
And but then on top of that, even in Jiu-Jitsu, you can sort of figure your way around the work, you know, if you're if you're clever enough turn this possible. It's the way it goes. But I think overall like you go to a wrestling practice generally speaking like General. Oh, yeah, of course you go to Andre galvao and you know, jumping his competition pal. Okay. It's going to be just as hard. But generally speaking, you go to a typical wrestling practice or a typical Jiu-Jitsu practice it. I I would guess. Yes. Because I don't care. Correct. You're
correct.
Yes, you're correct. That's what that's what that's what that's why wrestling is great to get your kids into you because they're going to get that grind. The people that they did, this big experiment or not experiment research to find out who makes it through SEAL training. The only two things that they found that gave any sort of indication was guys that wrestled and guys that are from New England. Seriously. It's great, you know, and it wasn't a huge. It wasn't a huge deal, the only. But, you know, I whenever I go to a wrestling tournament Marine, Corps is always there.
Reading, they know what's up. Yeah. This guy says, where's my judokas at? Yeah, not getting much like yeah, dude is awesome. Do you know the route ID? You Jutsu? Come on, man.
Yeah, and that's the reason that I was like don't necessarily just it because wrestling let's face it. Like you do have to have athletic ability like the less athletic ability. You have the less successful kind of generally speaking. You'll the less success. You'll find in wrestling compared to Judy.
It to or even Judo. I know competition Judo, of course, like any competition situation, the more athletic. You are the better, the more success you can find for sure. But as far as just doing it and being successful, like with the moves or whatever, it seems like and I've done Jutsu before, we're not that much but I have done, it seems like if you know the moves in the timing and the in the little, you know, this it seems like the athletic bra athletic part of it, power strength speed is less.
Important not to say unimportant, but less important than when wrestling.
I think wrestling has the highest level of importance around athleticism. I think Judo is number two, and that's not a very big margin in Jiu-Jitsu. The third
would be, my guess, is why, um,
I did wrestling in high school. I also had about five years of Japanese, karate, and Aikido.
The couple of times in my adult life where I was forced to defend myself. It was the resting that saved me. We didn't know about Jiu-Jitsu back then.
The president I was the president, my University's MMA club, and I also formerly wrestled in high school. It was so difficult teaching my guys to wrestle. They constantly challenged the notion of fighting off pins and fighting to defend to get takedowns. They failed to see the effect, the efficacy of it. And it was nearly impossible to teach them because they constantly wanted to pull guard or easily went to their backs. They really fought for takedowns. It's extremely hard to teach someone who has that Jiu-Jitsu background. The
it's of Simply wrestling the way, the only way I could was by Smashing them and forcing them to learn. Yeah, it definitely. The thing is,
Jiu-Jitsu is so much decided on the mat that to spend a bunch of time and effort fighting for the takedown. As they say, you could, you could do the pros and cons. Like you could do a, an analysis pros and cons to see it. Whether it's worthwhile or not to exert x amount of energy in the takedown and you're probably going to get the fact that no, it's actually not worth it. Yeah, which is, which is the sad truth.
For Jiu-Jitsu, right? The sad. Truth for a street fight is if you don't know how to defend a takedown and you don't have to put someone in the ground if you need to, that's a real problem. So yeah, Jujitsu I hate to say this but there's like a thread of laziness in it. Right? And actually, this is, when we were at the camp, you know, P. I was making fun of myself saying like, oh, you know, this is the lazy way to do it. So I like it and people would say no, it's energy Comfort conservation. Right? Efficient its efficiency. There's so much efficiency in Jiu-Jitsu that you can use it as a crutch to be like cool.
I'm just going to pull guard and and it's all good. I'll figure this out once we're on the
ground. Yeah. Yeah, and and when you think about it, given a certain philosophy, that's a good thing. We're yet. Do you know, do we want to expend all that energy for the sake of winning? A very specific fight, right? In a fight,
by the way, I end up on top and I'm at added Advantage, but depending on the guy on the bottom, I may or may not be it. You know, like it's it's an interesting.
It's interesting calculus to figure out that part of it. Yeah, look we but here's the deal. Ultimately. We know the takedown and being on top is better. That's just the superior thing. Right? We have that we just know that is it better and each individual specific scenario. Like if I'm going against a wrestler, how much time it like a good wrestler, how much time I'm going to waste trying to take him down? Not very much because I'd rather get to the mat where I can get busy. Yeah. Now I'm going to make him work for it. There's a significant chance. He's going to pay a dear price.
Getting the takedown, but for me to think, oh, I'm going to take him down. No, Yeah, Yeah, you
sort of just test the waters. And then since then kind of go from there with the takedown situation. Yeah. Like are you saying like Okay, how much is it worth it right to fight for the takedown or D? Even defend the take down some of the time where you going to waste a bunch of energy? Yeah, and then okay, is being on the top, worth more than being
fresh. That's a good fresher
debate, you know, but if you know, jiu-jitsu,
no, it's not worth it. Not at all. I'd way rather be fresh on
the bottom and kind of tired on top way rather.
Yeah, but if you only know wrestling, what's that? What's the answer? Well, I'd rather I'd rather be dead on top then then hundred percent strength on the bottom hundred percent. Typically, that's the case.
Here's a good one. I am Australian played rugby my whole life. I picked up wrestling straight away. It's not difficult for me. Jujitsu on the other hand. I really struggle off my back. I'm okay on top of controlling people.
But put me on my back and I'm screwed. I usually just resort to scrambling and wrestling to get to my feet, especially one. So there you have it. Some people that have the genetic disposition to be to be wrestlers.
It's hard for them to learn Jujitsu and there's people that are the other way. It kind
of feels like an obviously. This is a total hypothesis if that but yeah, it seems like if you're an athletic person, you know, like when you first started you too. All right, I mean I was like them. A lot of us are like this where if you come if you come in with athletic abilities, like you kind of lean on those athletic for sure, especially at first, so yeah. Being on the bottom. Like you can be the most athletic guy ever. But really all you know, is
Just if to stand back up, yeah. Or to get back, you know, you don't know the move. You don't know sweeps. You don't know like that can or even submissions a lot of times and they're not sharp for sure. So, yeah, you just use the athleticism and what effective situation. Can you get out over into with athleticism is just getting to your like hot. Like I was saying get your feet or whatever. Yeah, but you're when you're on top you can hold a guy down with all your strength and he can use some technique if, I mean, unless it's super
sharp, but you can get some little more intuitive to hold someone down. That is easier to
Understand that, then it is like how you're going to maneuver your hips and feet to get someone off. You get to your to get back up. Here's a good one. Devil's advocate here, nine times out, of ten seems a bit off of you're talking about. I think I said like nine times out of ten. The Jiu-Jitsu guy would be like a pure Jitsu versus pure wrestler. I've done both started in wrestling and I can imagine and I can't imagine any pure Jiu-Jitsu guy pulling guard and then getting his head smashed on the
Crete, he may not need subs when he's in an actual fight if it's an actual fight like you're arguing. So this is a good point. This is one of the ones I was like, yeah, you know when I when I was like pure Jiu-Jitsu versus pure wrestling. I was like nine times out of ten, the pure Jiu-Jitsu guys going to win and that was based off my experience where on the map. That's right. Because on the mats look, hey guarantee nine times out of ten. The wrestler gets the takedown. He's getting Guillotine. He's getting on. This is pure wrestling.
Sling or pure Jiu-Jitsu, that's what's going to happen. But now this guy point taken legitimate point, if it's a fight that changes is quite a bit, because now when you hit the ground, first of all, when the takedown happens, you're getting smashed onto the freaking concrete. If you're unconquered, if you're on concrete, so that could be game over. Second of all, once you're down, you're not just trying to hold him your ground and pound your punching someone so that can change the outcome. So, yes, I agree with that one. If you're talking a real, a wrestler versus pure.
Versus pure Jiu-Jitsu. Wrestler has a better chance in real fight than he does in a grappling match.
Yeah, respectfully, don't agree. Why is that? I think circumstantially. Yeah, like if you go into specific scenarios or kind of specific scenarios,
like well, we're not talking about we're talking
broadly. Okay. So, okay, we'll start with a comment where you would like your head smashed off. The concrete was like, okay, so that would mean that the wrestler and who is capable by the way, he would have to do a takedown or do something that would actually
Ali, smash a Jiu-Jitsu. Get head on the concrete. That's why I said if you're even on concrete, so okay, you choose a fight or you choose to fight someone on the concrete? Okay, and that specific scenario on top of the fact that he does it take down or situation. Like, if they straight up pulls guard and then he does this lamb to slam the guys hitting on the concrete. There is that's possible. Yeah.
Well, one thing, one thing that's interesting is that I just thought of in Jiu-Jitsu in pure Jiu-Jitsu. You learn some wrestling. Yes.
In pure wrestling. You don't learn Jujitsu. They don't go. Hey, by the way, you might get an arm lock here. They don't go. Hey, this is a chimera, right? They don't say this is a guillotine. This is how you can choke someone in Jiu-Jitsu. If you learning pure Jiu-Jitsu, you're getting taught a double Leg Takedown, right? You're getting taught that you're getting taught a single-leg takedown. You're getting caught us taught a seatbelt. There's all kinds of things that you actually will.
We'll learn directly from wrestling. So if you is that still considered pure right, is it pure Jiu-Jitsu? If you got taught how to do a double Leg Takedown and how to defend it. You learned it injured. You never went to rest of your life, but you still learned it. You could go to wrestling your whole life and never learn an arm lock, for sure. For sure. You could go to Resting your whole life and you never learn to come here. Yeah, for sure. So, that makes it a little bit interesting to. So we'll the reason I was thinking that is because you said,
L.
Well, you'd have to have a wrestler that was capable of shooting a good enough double to get in deep and then smash the guy on the ground, right? On the concrete on the concrete and then I thought well, what's interesting about that is anyone that's been training Jiu-Jitsu for a little while knows the double knows the counter and he's gonna he's not going to the counter at great. But he's gonna at least know it. It's not like it's a blind blind
situation. At the very least. He's gonna know how to not get his head smashed on the concrete, or the grass, or the what wherever they're fighting at the very.
He's an idiot and then that brings you to the question like okay, when you mean pure Jiu-Jitsu versus pure wrestling. So it's like are they on the same level? So let's say a level 10, wrestler was the level 10 Jiu-Jitsu guy or a lot less a even level 5 verses level 5 Jiu-Jitsu or you know, fight. I'm just saying if they're evenly matched with their level. I'm starting to get frustrated with this
whole like this whole
thing. I think, if you narrow it down, you can figure it out, is what I'm saying. So a lot of these comments and I dig it because I kind of feel the same way where you when you think of the, maybe your bias if
You have one if you think of your bias, you think about a top-level guy? Versus a run-of-the-mill other
guy? Yeah, it's not. If you go here
you go nuts to nuts. No, I don't think so. I think the gist is guys gonna win straight up like you get now. I now if you're like, oh, hey D1 college, you have to, you have to,
you have to concede the fact that a Jiu-Jitsu guy. Let's say, let's say, on the mat grappling match, nine times out of ten Jiu-Jitsu win.
Pure Jiu-Jitsu against pure wrestling. And the fact the matter is that the wrestler doesn't really know how to win. So it's not really even that fair. He doesn't know how to submit the person and that's how the fight ends, right. So nine times out of ten. Sure, maybe the guy grabs his head and can crank on it. Whatever would you not concede to the fact that if you now go straight, a
fight
that the wrestler has an advantage as a shake it out? Because let me say this to you now. What's the wrestler?
Going to do, he tried to punch this guy in the head. He's not necessarily trying to take him down. Now if he's a really good wrestler. His instincts are going to be taking down. So they again that's why it gets frustrating because we started just going in the hypothetical upon hypothetical upon hypothetical all which leads to do wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu and combine and grapple and train and strike and dumort. I do everything. Yeah, I agree. Boxing agree. Because a good wrestler, like a good Jiu-Jitsu guy that has boxing.
Right is so much better off than a day. Like he could just go down all these different paths, the paths, all say, train everything. Let's go. No, we're talking about, I don't butt in here
kit. So it's up to Kenan Cornelius. You might know him, send ya guy and he made a good point with it. Where people like it's the people are. So are we? We all are actually are so quick to be like, yeah, like Jiu-Jitsu like he, like they're only gonna be using like all.
Jujitsu moves that they use in the tournament in a street fight, like No One's Gonna like try to try to jump
flying triangle on a kind of I always make that. Clear.
Yeah. So like your digits, it becomes real basic in a street fight real basing and it most of the time I would argue anyway, no one's going to do so move. That's going to put them at risk of getting their head slammed against Iran. No one's going to do that. No one's going to jump card for sure. You never jump guard, onto someone in a street fight, doesn't make sense. Let me put it this way. Have to be it be right, you know, just not
Knowing there's just not really, you know, so that. And I think at the end of the day, when you really think about it, actually playing out. I don't think that generally speaking, nine times out of ten as as it were, I don't think the Jiu-Jitsu guy would suffer all these things that let that people think you
would. Well, you can't say that because I'm saying he's gonna win, nine times out of ten. Okay here. So what are you saying? It's
10 out of 10 and I'm saying that not all the nine
times Outta ten even in a street fight
if not 10, even in the street.
If they're evenly matched will you can see this? The wrestler has a
better chance in our Syrah street fight than he does on a grappling match. Yes. Okay, I would say
that. Yes, sir. Look
anybody that's in there going, you know, just want to call BS on this whole thing because you believe that Rhett look. This is already been proven like and look wrestling with one month of Jiu-Jitsu is a total Game Changer. It's All a Game Changer. It's a total Game
Changer and consider to in this is by no means proof.
But it's every it's an indicator. It's evidence like you okay, UFC for voice crazy Dan. Severn outweigh badass wrestler, not at not a beginner wrestler. In fact, you could even argue that dancer sevens level wrestling was higher than hoist. Gracie's level of Jiu-Jitsu. It could be
argued. Yeah. Well, especially if you if you compared hoist to the level of Jiu-Jitsu today,
today, it's the level you
do today is higher than the level of wrestling as Jiu-Jitsu levels have gone up more than wrestling.
I've gone up in the past whatever. It's been 20
years. Yeah, and I would, I don't doubt that either. So consider that fight, always Gracie, hundred, whatever £80, however, much intense, ever to 40 to 50, whatever he weighed 15 minute fight, by the way. So there's some mental toughness in there and voice crazy one submission. So, the, in the reason that you say, oh, yeah, wrestler would have a better chance in a street fight. Then in a grappling match is because you can do these things that are kind of intuitive like
Like punch in elbow and do the things that you don't need that, you need some trash. I think training does help for sure, for sure. But if you're never trained in punching in elbowing or whatever, you can still effectively punched an elbow. Somebody so that's what kind of gives it more of a my effective. The yeah, it makes more
effective. That's fast doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like a person that has never learned how to throw a punch before or throw an elbow. Is marginally effective compared to somebody that actually lives on the box Paradise. Totally different compared, but I do agree. The
Fact that yes, a person that's never trained out of box before, can throw a better punch, then someone that's never done. Jiu-Jitsu can do an arm lock. Yeah. There's zero chance that they're going to get a knockout or get it. Get it on lock.
Exactly. So when you throw that into the mix like, okay, consider, okay, when I started you to my first day of Duty to I weighed 225 pounds, I was into lifting and that kind of stuff. Never was trained in boxing.
Or anything. But I know or just don't even take me take to you, take anyone, anyone who's like athletic and kind of big put them mounted on somebody. No Jiu-Jitsu training mounted on somebody, say beat him up, punch him, elbow and whatever? No, training in boxing or elbowing. Beat him up all. He'll beat you up. Big time. Weight
is the guy on the bottom. No Jiu-Jitsu. No. Okay. Well,
yeah, the fight or what. It doesn't matter. I'm just saying like those elbows and punches are gonna do a lot of damage. Now, if you get a guy, no, you did to experience put them mounted and be
Get out tap this guy out. Oh, yeah.
No Jiu-Jitsu. He simply cannot do it. It's the effectiveness is literally zero zero. So I'm just saying you can throw in. Hey just rules alone. Can make a person. More effective seem saying if you're going in a real fight, but what's the example of that ten? Seven points Gracie whom they can do whatever they want. You know, no real situation. They're grappling. I want any was smaller and arguably loves toys. No, never.
He's good too. Just to
I hear good things. Yeah,
super cool. Let's see. If someone's a couple people bring up catch wrestling, which is is awesome catch wrestling and we talked about it on the video as well. The guy says, the guy says, what about submission? Catch wrestling to take the strengths of wrestling like takedown skills and add the submissions be able to finish. And then he says, at 7.56, he goes to catch wrestling a little bit. So yeah, definitely catch wrestling is
And you got some catch wrestling practitioners current current Day, Josh
Barnett, black belt in Jujitsu, by the way. Yeah. I can't maybe third
degree in. Yeah, but his base is catch wrestling catch, and he's a beast. Let's see
sakuraba as well. But again, like, this is like, you know, how they used to say. Remember when mashita, Lyoto Machida was champ there, like, oh, Lucy, you karate is better than Jiu-Jitsu.
Well, you know, she was blackmailed, you
It's, by the way, you know, so
it's kind of like, you know, just like Josh Barnett and I'm not and here's the thing. I think catch wrestling. You get a badass cash register. He can beat you. Did you guys know for sure? Because he has some missions, he has like the wrestling like yeah, it's pot. It's I
look at catch wrestling is Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling combined. That's what it is. Yeah, let's not even you know,
it's like this massive overlap. It seems like. Yeah, but yes, but Josh Barnett is argue. It could be said that Josh Barnett maybe isn't the best.
This example of how effective catch wrestling is in and of itself because he has black belt in Jujitsu. Yeah, straight
up. So, you know, it's a lot of its personality driven to like my, my daughter who wrestled and did Jujitsu, which are they all do? But while one Dart, they all did you just you? But one of them wrestled to extensively, but she almost immediately, when she started wrestling was like, I like wrestling better. And I said, why?
Like I said, well I didn't say like that. I said, oh, why do you like dressing better? She says it's so simple. Like what I have to do is take down the person and pin them. Yeah, there's not heel Hooks and chokes and our mind all these other things like no, I'm gonna get you on your back. That's what I'm going to do. So she like that Simplicity. I would say my son on the other hand who also does Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. I would say even though during racing season. It's all wrestling.
Given the opportunity. He man, he likes to roll. Badge, Jiu-Jitsu. Wow, you know what I'm saying? Cause you got that personality, you know, he likes that. He likes that the dang, go go
prochnow. Yeah. It and that's that's deep behalf. I think your daughter had it. Has it correct in that way because in wrestling it seems like I and again, I don't know. Your daughter has wrestling experience. I simply don't so but it seems like it. Yeah.
Well and
It will the bottom line is. There's so much technique in wrestling as well. Yeah, crazy registers in st. There's an insane amount of technique in wrestling, for sure. Yeah.
So but her opinion on the Simplicity of it. It does seem to be true. It seems like if you're on top interesting, you know, it's pretty simple to know if you're winning or not in Jiu-Jitsu. There's a big part of your Jutsu kind of Journey where you can literally think you're winning, but you're losing or you can think. Oh, yeah. I got them here, but he
Kind of got you, you know, there's a lot of that going on in Jiu-Jitsu. It seems like in wrestling. There's no, of course, there is some of that, but there's like, less of that. It's like more straightforward and that's what it seems like. Anyway,
check.
I can't wait till you guys get to the point where the listeners can call in and talk about the things you say. Oh, that's not even have to do with this, this subject. I'd like to hear Jocko has to say in regards to the differences between Jiu-Jitsu. Apply to self-defense forces sport Jitsu and how changes in regards to weapons multiple attackers. This is just like I can't, I can't do it. It's been a day. I've answered it a thousand times. You know, let's just move on the
No, it just sakuraba checking. Yeah, you already brought up a sec. Soccer Abba. Somebody said one word. Khabib, right? Dude, is an animal when it comes to take down. But khabib is a somber guy. He's a wrestler, but he's a sawmill guy, which again, sambo is really close to a mixture of really good wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu, you know,
D Mr.
Sambala too, by the way.
Yeah, Dean Lister two-time national champion champion, Samba guy, by the way,
what else? Uh, do you think sport versus fighting or street street self-defense? Whatever was put simply before, when the, which I thought was was more or less accurate. Where's I think it was like, John jock. Machado might have said it and I'm not
sure. What did you say? He
said that street or sport Jiu-Jitsu is doing Judy.
Against another guy doing Jiu-Jitsu against you street fighting, or self-defense is doing Jiu-Jitsu against a guy not use in Jiu-Jitsu. Yeah, that's what he sort of said. And
what you have to translate that one step further which is doing Jiu-Jitsu again. Some of the doesn't know what they're doing and you don't, you know, that's what he's really
saying. Yeah, fully. I mean, of course you could go down the rabbit hole where it's like even if you fight on the streets off defense with a guy who also knows jujitsu,
You're not going to go, dude. It's not gonna be like a Jiu-Jitsu match, because I'm saying no, but if it's like, okay, this guy's going to bring as much, you just do as possible. And Sport situation. You're going to bring all your Jiu-Jitsu seem sane. So it's, like juicy against you. It's the kind of thing. I think that's sort of what he meant true. But of course, there's a lot more details to it. But simply speaking. I liked it, it
years. I gotta roll into this one. The issue I have with these comparisons is that they always default to Jujitsu rules. I'm not a disciple of
Our but wrestling guy pains a Jiu-Jitsu guy much faster than a jujitsu guy submits a wrestler equal level of training ability. That's fine. But the whole point of this is that is that painted getting pinned doesn't mean you lose a real fight at all. That's what that's what this is. It doesn't mean so yeah, it defaults to judge its rules because Jiu-Jitsu has a finite ending you tap out. That's the end of the match wrestling. Is you hold someone down, which isn't the fight is not
over. Yeah.
Can you and obviously I don't know all the pins in wrestling. But is there a pin in wrestling? That's really easy to hold someone that you could hold them there for 30 minutes?
Yeah, just like a side control, right? That's a pain in wrestling. Just being inside, control your painting. The person you can hold someone there for half an hour if you wanted to. Yeah, but we are using in the rules.
No, no, not yet. No, I mean what you think? I mean like Sarah one that exists because like side control. Okay, I mean to
Can a guy where he can't move inside. Control takes like, you can't do that for 30 minutes. Like you can lay on them for 30 minutes and he'll have opportunities to escape within 30 minutes.
Seems I think that I could hold many people inside control on their back up in for 30 minutes at that was the
test. You could cause your side controls like good, but if you wouldn't be like holding their head as hard as you possibly eat hot, someone has a tight cut side control like like the moment where someone's trying to get their points that first three seconds. Okay, that that's like that. See
Seems like Anyway, an example of like an actual pin that seems like you're actually painting the guy, you are pinning the guy, right? So, but once you sort of, let go of that, that the tension, so to speak, that's where this guy can create opportunities to escape will say, right? Okay, so in wrestling and seeing that, this is a question. I have like, in wrestling. It seems like anytime a guy who has pinned me for like Greg or someone would show me an example of a pin. I feel like it's kind of that first three seconds of side control where I can't escape. Even if I go hard right now, I can't
Skating this pin for sure, for sure. But is there a pin where it's so dominant that the guy doesn't have to use like, you
know, absolutely energy. I was taught about the piano. There's a ton of them including just side control, right? Like when I get side control which in wrestling, you can get people that you're looking to. That's literally what you're trying to do is get control of them. Most a lot of the pins come from a side control looking position. Yeah. So yeah, there's wrestlers that could pin you.
Have you ever been put inside controlled by a really good wrestler? Yeah, they're painting you and and you can't get
out. Yeah, but if you give me 30 minutes, I
can possibly yes,
but even okay, so let me explain it better, I guess. Okay. So even you put me inside control, huh, right? You put me inside control, I could like spat. I'm not saying when you have me in the tension shoulder in the jaw, you know, that first three seconds. It's like
control.
The regular site control. Yeah, you're trying to hold me there for 30 minutes. Absolutely. I could like if I'm strong enough and have enough energy. I can like spazzing, get to my knees. I'll get choked 100%. Yes, but I could get out of sight, good. Yeah, I don't have a
position. I don't agree with that. I think I even if their goal ifferent, we can, if the goal for me was just to hold you in side control. Yeah, you know, yeah, you could get out but there's at least a 75% chance that half an hour goes by and you're just down there inside, control exhausted. Yeah,
so,
Do you think? And even if that were true, which I'm not going to say? It's
not true Nest. There's been a member when you were claustrophobic for a while. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, there were times where my I would just hold you in side control, just to make you suffer, not trying to help you overcome that, that issue, right? Thank you for watching that by the way, but nonetheless. And I believe me it would, you know what? Maybe, maybe 30 minutes didn't go by but like eight would go by and it wasn't like your chances of escaping were increasing as time went on because I wasn't getting tired.
And in this idea that I was up there. Gorilla gripping know, it's like it's my weight and gravity but it's not
just your weight. It's like, you're adjusting your way. You're shifting everything
actually. When I first this, you can. If you get if you got a good side control on me, and then you were like, okay my goal is just to hold you you could hold me there for a long time. In fact, most of the time when I escaped from someone it's because they you got to bait them with something else. If you're like, hey, I'm not gonna go for any of these alarm exposures. That Jocko gives me all these neck exposure.
I'm not going to take him. I'm just gonna hold him here. It would be really hard for me to get out. Yeah, really hard. I would have to psychologically torment you to where you go for something and then I get out or even like a mother had a judo guy, get like the scarf and bond you. Yes, sir half and you're not getting out. You have to let them expire. After you have to give them something that they think they can take to get them to maneuver. So there's a whole that hopefully opens up, and if they say, no, I'm not taking the bait. You're just going to sit there longer.
Just when he longer,
well, that's true. I felt the classroom. Like when you said this a good year ago scar, scar fold with the ghee. That's rough. The some so in Jiu-Jitsu Zone, okay moving One Step kind of further than so in Jiu-Jitsu like if you get a guy back Mount body lock on them.
Mmm one over water lock by luck. Meaning we have body body triangle. Okay. Yes,
you know, one over one under as far as arm position on your back, you could stay.
Therefore long time straight up and they go would have no recourse. He could move around, maybe a shirt more but you know, there's a lot of those weird. Like they're not necessarily pins like pin the guy on his back, but you get into these positions that that I simply can't get out of
Check. This guy says, so I want to become a carpenter, but I can't decide if I should buy a hammer or a tape measure.
Which is more important. Like, if I had to choose one and he says, this is nonsense and it's driving me. Bananas one isn't better than the other love wrestling. Love Jiu-Jitsu. Love Judo. It's all grappling. Yeah, props.
Yeah. I don't know if that's
is. This person said, is it really so difficult to answer the question. He actually asked? Oh my God, wasted six minutes. Sorry, bro, if you're on YouTube that, you know,
1:00 in the morning. You don't have to worry about these six minutes that you're wasting. There's a lot of other things you're wasting. So let's not, let's not head down that road. It just going to can a bum you out.
Mmm,
the toolbox thing kind of reinforces what you're saying, learn everything, right? So it's like, you know, yeah. Guy with a hammer is better off than the guy with nothing. Okay. With the what is it tape measure
8 measures better off now
because nothing the guy with the hammer versus the guy with the tape measure, you know, it depends on what they're doing obviously, but the guy with both who that guy can get some things
done right there. Yeah, imagine you throw a song in there. Now we can do anything. This guy says it also depends on the form of jiu-jitsu.
Are comparing cot tomato. Jiu-Jitsu is more of a standing form compared to Brazilian. When I talk about Jiu-Jitsu. I'm only talking about one kind of Jiu-Jitsu and that's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but I need to make that clear more often.
What else? This guy just said beautiful answer and discussion prompts. While we give you a little bit more here, little another little taste on that grounded podcast.
What else? I'll read. One more of these things before we just completely beat this dead horse.
Hell yeah, there you go. To answer the question in real-world practice Ben. Askren versus Demian Maia.
Ben askren is a god, tier Olympic wrestler. He was put to sleep by a god tier, VII j.j. Practitioner, whatever the the that's that sort of proves the point in a way, but then you could go out and site a million examples of wrestlers, that beat the hell out of jujitsu, guys. God, tier though.
I'm not saying it's not true. I'm saying that that's a to me that when they use examples of P this person versus this person, whatever. There's like, there seems to be more to it than that.
Because Damon my has good wrestling as well. Maybe not like at the same level as Demian Maia, but it's kind of like the Josh Barnett situation where it's like, yeah, catch wrestling. He's got dressed. And so it's so good that he just beats and Taps out Dean, but it's like, well, yes, he has good catch wrestling but he has black belt level Jiu-Jitsu as well. So even, you know, Demian Maia, you know, even though he did. Yes, he did, tell him out, but he does have wrestling see him saying so it's like, it's not a, what do you call like clean?
It's not here. It's not here. It's not here, one of the other.
I take a wrestler over Jiu-Jitsu and street fight, personally. You don't really need to choke someone out after you suplex them on concrete. I'll dig into some replies to that. I agree that BJJ guy could win against the wrestler and a BJJ competition. But in an MMA match where a ground and pound is allowed. All right. Well anyways, all we probably did is create more comments on this but interesting discussion, I think, overall what we're saying.
Is what I'm saying is train grappling, of course, train striking to but train trade. That's what you need to do. Train rustling, train Jiu-Jitsu train Judo training. It all train boxing. Trained Muay Thai.
Train everything, that's my conclusion.
Okay, for now
current. That's your current
conclusion. And sorry. It's been a while since we did a grounded podcast.
But we will try and do them a little more often. If you want to train any of these grappling Arts. We can help you by getting you the gear. You need vigi the rash guard. Go to origin, main.com for made in America from
From the dirt to the shirt. Origin Main.com.
If you want to support the podcast a little bit, you can check out Jocko's store.com. We got shirts and rash guards and other assorted.
Things stuff that all helps support this appreciate it. And until next time, stay grounded.
