The word that's been getting thrown around a lot as skeuomorphic, a lot of solutions, to the usage of a new technology and up, starting in a skeuomorphic way, which is to say that you take something you're familiar with and you just apply that approach to the new thing. So right now, it's oh, yeah, it's it's blockchain. So we're going to make songs and albums and put them on the blockchain. Like what if the new version of it actually changes the
the length of songs, what if it's front to back with no brakes? And that's your album. And that's one and ft. What if they're audio-visual? All of those things are in play when it comes to this, next version of not only music, but games and movies and so on.
That was Mike. Shinoda who likely needs no introduction.
He's a singer songwriter rapper record producer, and now, nft artist, and of course, co-founder of the band Linkin Park and founder and frontman of his band Fort Minor is been my pleasure to be connected with Mike for gosh, a little over a decade now and I got to tell you two things really stand out about his character first. He is a kind thoughtful and just a wonderful human and S as you'll hear from this interview, he does not take shortcuts is just a wealth.
Of new ideas and creativity and also truly a fantastic and ft artist so much talent on many levels. A real honor to have them on. This is Mike. Shinoda, Mike, dude. So good to have you on the show. It's awesome.
Yeah, man, thanks. It's so good to
be here. And I know I've told you this before, but I got to say it again. January of this year. We were on a clubhouse hanging out. Talk about random stuff and you were like these enough to use, man. They're, they're, they're start, there's something.
The starting to happen again and that kick-started everything. They got me back into punks and into now this podcast. And so I got to say thanks for opening my eyes to the stuff like early on. It's
awesome. Appreciate that. I heard from friends that you shouted, me out, on previous proof podcasts. And I always would, like, when that's happened. I've gotten some emails and DM's like, dude. I didn't know this about you and Kevin and I was like, it's funny because the, I wasn't even a planned guest on that.
Clubhouse was, I know I just
thought you show, you showed up. I just invited you up on stage. It was me and Ryan from product time. That's why I jumped in there.
Because I saw both of you talking. I haven't talked to Ryan and forever.
Yeah, he's I haven't talked to him in a couple months either. I need to reconnect, actually, who's in Cabo. Actually. I just talked to him. I was texting with him. But yeah, we haven't chatted. Cool, dude. I mean, you are in deep now. I feel like you swallowed. The full-on pill.
Is that true? I mean, MIT,
yes, but also not
Is probably not as committed. I feel like I should have taken my own advice jumped in way harder when you did. I was talking about, I was so excited about it. And then, there was this flood around. I don't know, January February March time. There's this flood of all this. These musicians and entertainment like entities that really scared me off. Yeah. You remember what I'm
talking about? For sure. It was just like all of a sudden everyone.
It felt like all the managers heard about the same time. Yes, I'd like you need to do not have t and
then it was. So the worst part is I was really into the concept of it. I started to like think. Oh, what if, what could a 10 ft be other than what it like other than a JPEG or whatever, and I started to feel, like, think out some ideas. I actually had one idea that was a game related thing that I really liked and that we started digging in with a couple people about that. And then
Just to be totally clear. It was like, I had talked to the got this guy Billy, who, like was one of the people or the guy who like invented Dogecoin, he hit the. So he had followed me on Twitter and I was like, what the hell? And I just reached out to his like, hey night. Thanks for the follow. What are you up to? And we start talking about the idea of doing like a doge related game that was blockchain game basically idea and the idea of your wallet being the
Console and the nft being the cartridge or the like website being a, the console in your and of T, being the cartridge. Right? And I took that to the guys at Palm I/O and they were pumped, they like this is such a good idea. We're going to do this starting to do some other people. Next thing. I knew it's like Kings of Leon or in the space and there was all these musicians and like managers and items just got really frothy and I was like, no this is not a good idea.
Like there's no, this is not a good idea. I'm not gonna be able to make this thing that I want to make Billy. And I have different like, there's some like different Visions whatever and I just totally got scared off and backed out for a couple months. I didn't touch it at
all. I mean, it felt to me like when you say frothy it felt like there was a bunch of people that jumped in that. Thought. I'm not really thinking this through but I'm going to make it an empty because I know I can make a half million dollars in 12
minutes. Yes, you know me. I'm like I had minted a few things on Zora.
Yeah, I'd started experimenting with the learning about the technology and experimenting with things, and when I saw people who don't really care about that part of it, like, like making Innovative stuff and being prioritizing the creative. And by the way, if you die feel it, because I always feel like if you do that, then the money part comes after. But it just it, you can't let the put the cart before the horse. Right? And I saw people doing that and I was like, oh, I don't want to be a
See it with that. Like I don't want people who don't know, better to mistake me for one of the people that are rushing in right now. So I backed out just to kind of let that wave pass. I think that
was wise, except for you probably should have bought some art blocks and some other stuff in the waves pass.
Tell me about it. Tell me about it, but I just like so many people I was like, wow, this is this may be with punks it, so it's probably peeking. It's 40,000 upon. I like that's a lot or so.
So many of those things, I even knew my friend like I had but I was on a textured with friends who are all buying Apes the day they minted, right? And I saw the tech, I saw the thread and like I couldn't get to my computer. I was like, that's fine, like whatever. And then I saw then I saw what it was and is like, oh man, I really missed out because I love this art.
Yeah. I was one that the same thing happened. And I looked at the art and I was like, God this just isn't for me and they've got random things and, you know, I do it was already a punctual or do you actually own any
Thanks. I knew you were going to ask me this and I actually had to really think about how I was going to answer because I do own a punk but it's not a public like situation. So maybe I'll just say, I'll say it that way. Like, see haven't disclosed which punk in it.
No. No. Can I ask you attribute wise? Could we talk about what type of
punk it is? It's male. Okay, and it's I would say
has a hoodie. No, it's not a hoodie. It's Daddy. It
actually I'm not gonna say anything else because if at some point I'll probably talk about it. But I think there's like a it's a later conversation.
Okay, it's funny. I have one other friend. Actually. I think that maybe Tim is talking about it publicly now, but Tim Ferriss. He's obviously as well. He was in the same but was like, I'm not gonna talk about my punk. It's like, he wouldn't tell anybody. It's just like it was like, the secret Punk that he is held on the side, but that's fair enough, but I'm glad you owed one. That's
great. They're not 40 Grand anymore. Yeah.
I definitely, I feel like it's everybody's got their list of Grails. And for me while I do love, I didn't, I wasn't. I wasn't early enough on cadenzas or ringers or any of those tilt get in. And at this point it'd be like buying something, you know, extraordinary just to have that in your collection, but I do have, you know, I have an ape. I have a couple mutants. I've got squiggle. I've got a punk.
And for me, like those are the ones of the kind of Grails that I think are great. The only way I'd say, you know, talking to you. The only one that's like on my list of things that I would love to have that. I don't, because as xcopy. Yeah,
say that it's the one. It's so good. If, when you look at xcopy just blown away as I am or is it? I know the thing about
xcopy is as an artist. I know how he's make. I could replicate the look of what he's doing to to like
90%, right. It's that it's that other 10%. That's the magic that first of all that. He's just a total OG in the space that he's been doing it longer than almost anybody. Yeah,
Tennessee goes as Tumblr account over 10 years ago. He was making saying, look exactly like the ones he produces today.
Yeah. Yeah, and that's part of the magic and then that he's birthed a whole like jet at this point, like a whole generation of artists behind him or imitating. His style puts him in like a, almost a Banksy.
Category and by the way, Sim similar to Banksy the aesthetic of of kind of anti-establishment, and irony, irony and sarcasm, and all of those things. I
think that's what I am drawn to about his stuff. I love that. Do you own a Banksy? I don't. Actually, I've always wanted one, but they've always been. So, I've been, I think I've been priced out. Have you ever met Banksy?
No, I should say. I don't. I wouldn't know if I if I ever met him. He wasn't introduced as
Banksy, okay?
Yeah, interesting. You're not busy.
Yeah. I wish I was back. See I have a friend. Who does know Banksy and is very he's respectful of the the anonymity and doesn't everybody. He's like, I think he's got they got pictures together and stuff and whatever crazy. Yeah. So what brought you back in? I mean you said it's
frothy. I mean I hear you there was a lot of people to jump it
in. People were the thing that
got me was I was seeing celebrities producing in
ft's that they didn't even make.
Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, that was the really the, as an artist. So I went to, for people listening, who don't know, me. I thought until I was in college, I was going to be an illustrator, may be a graphic designer. My major was in illustration. I went to school at Art Center College of design, which was it was described to me as the Harvard of art schools. I was like this is going to be really hard to get into. The curriculum is difficult. You will not sleep very much. It's very expensive. You won't have a
Social life and all of those things were true. And I was in school, and the only thing that I really did to kind of unwind. It was like, 75% of my social life was music. And if I had an extra dollar, I'd spend it on music gear. I started making stuff for the beginning of college with my band. What year was this? I graduate high school 95. And so my friend Mark and I made a few demos that ended up being the earliest versions of Linkin Park.
That when you were calling, it was a zero back then or a
good memory. Yeah, it was xer0 and we were it was just it started as just me. And my friend, Mark, long story short, Mark was really good at a lot of things in music, but singing wasn't his main thing, and it actually made him so anxious that he would get by. He was on his way to ulcers and all that. He
hated like stage fright, kind of
thing. He hated being on stage in front of people. It just made him. It turned him into a different person. Yeah, and he
Some people are go like, oh man, that's so you know, I bet that guy's like to really bumpy wasn't the singer Linkin Park. Actually. He Mark ended up being a really successful music manager, which is a perfect fit for him manage groups like System of a Down Deftones Alice in Chains and so on. So isn't he did really well after Mark? We after we parted ways of Mark and we found Chester bang took off from there. But but just to put it into this in the context of the nft conversation. I've always been heavily involved in all of the are
for the band, whether it's in actually drawing things that become the cover of an album or dice or the website or whatever or creative directing with the artists that we bring on for an album or everywhere. Whatever. So when I was seeing enough cheese was what started to happen in an of T's around February. I was just so bummed because as an artist, I'm like, but I do those, I do the music. I do the art myself, right? Like in these guys are like some of them.
Like farming out both the music and the art right and just selling it for crazy money and people are buying it. But they're gone all going to get burned. Yes. I agree
completely. I mean, I remember talking to someone and they were I don't want to name who this celebrity was, but they said that the celebrity just had a phone call conversation with a ghost artist that then went and created the nft. And so even though it said this person didn't actually make it. I think that was pretty
Well known, but it still it seemed like why am I doing this again? Just because they I don't know he's confusing but we've seen there's been actually there was a news article just a few days ago about how a lot of those early in ft's was celebrity. Endorsement have fallen off the cliff. Yeah, and they're not really that
collectible. I think there's just to put it in comparison to give a comparison in terms of my intention versus what we're talking about in those months. I did a couple of projects that just to keep my head in the space, my head and game. I did.
A collaboration with a great artist named Esteban and we did that on Nifty Gateway. And then, I did a layered music project on a sink, which if you haven't seen the async our stuff, it's amazing. Like, it's so cool.
It's very cool. I've seen a few of them. What a sink is capable of? Can you explain to folks what that project was entailed?
Yeah, they did. They do, layered and of teas. So first thing they launched with the simple version.
Of it is Imagine folders full of layers. If we're talking about, let's compare it to a board ape. Just for the sake of comparison, like an ape is like a colored background with a body and then like a face and then maybe some accessories or something. So, those are four layers background Body Face accessories, right? And if you do for, let's say, you do two options of each, just to keep the numbers, simple search for layers, two options. If you were to do that on a sink, they let everybody, they let people
By the master file, they let a person by the master file and then they let a person by the layer files. So if you were to buy the face layer, then you could be the one who chooses the face and then your thing changes and the master file changes. You actually change somebody else's and of tea, right? And as it changes people can basically, by Prince for lope, soda by me, Originals is very expensive, but buying the prince is much less. And so you can buy prints of the nft in
Its current state and that locks in
that print in its current state. So ya later be
changed. Yeah, so, you know, your print. So if somebody the Mayan of t.i., I dropped a music version, I do Rod up to music a sink piece. The same. Wake you like the in my we dropped a cock was in that week. It was a it was a good week. Yeah, and we had a and mine was basically the music version of that. So there's a layer that was drums a layer that was basal layer, that was keyboards and so on.
And what eventually one collector ended up buying the whole thing? They bought this guy, Matt, but all of them, and so Matt has, he seldom changes the layers. So people have any time he makes an adjustment. Anytime he changes a layer like people run in and men to bunch of them crazy. So it does. He get that those royalties? Do you get some of that? How does that work? No, I don't think he does. I think it's just me.
Me. Yeah, that would be interesting because in some sense
like he's playing the slight hand of the Artist as well. But you gotta find the
layers. Yeah, when he bought them, by sent the fans to him and I said, pay attention to this guy, you know, it's mad as mm40 if you want to find them, but actually that kind of brings us up to present day because fast-forwarding, I could somewhere after that. I was thinking like if I do an end of T, I think the next thing I want to do is a, a general
Have music and ft. And so the idea would be to do to take the things of like the idea of the format of the punks and apes and so on, and so many of these projects and were and basically focus it on a music release where everybody's music is different. So 5000 p in this case I decided to do 5,000 pieces
in which project is this.
So this is a brand-new project. So taking us up to date.
Seaweed into the future like two weeks from two weeks from now. I'm going to drop a non-action tasos. I'm doing a and a generative project called ziggurats. And it's a, I'm calling in a generative, a mixtape because of the format of it, but it's actually very short. It's six minutes long. It's rap verses Over beats and it's layer. It's generative layers with Rarity structure. So basically everybody who buys one is going to have
Completely unique generative mixtape with a completely unique cover. As
we gotta unpack a lot of.
SO waiting. He's he is saying
you said, okay. So take a look at, just starting with the audio itself. Okay, how many layers of audio are there that are generative? And where is the? Is it code? Is it what's generating? This does it sound awesome? Like
what is you doing? Well, the good thing about the one of the benefits of
Rap music is that you just need in order for a vocal to lock up with the track. You just need to be on the same BPM. It needs are the same tempo, but the key could potentially change. I was messing around with that. And seeing if I could put different pieces together. That weren't in the same key. I actually ended up doing it in the same key doing all the layers. In the same key, your singing signature. Is that how it works? So here's what it is. Okay, there are music layers that include it's drums. It's
And it's different instruments and Melodies, but there's a master layer of vocal over top of it all and the master layer appears on everything. So that's just the basically, the vocal tract and a couple of other of this is that most talent and that's locked into everybody's entity. But what goes on underneath it is enough layers to generate over 5,000. I think we took like seven or eight thousand, do know. We're 25 thousand unique layers of of
Audio, so everybody's audio is going to be completely different and the what you might call like the album cover, I decided to do it in a profile picture style. So you're going to get both and that makes your entity. It's a
six minute long songs, you
say it's six minutes and 45 seconds
fish. So one question when you're changing the generative pieces of it, like the drums, the percussion, and all the other elements that are in there, how much
Asian is there? Meaning that if I listen to two of your different entities that are generative, is it going to be something? We're like, oh, yeah, that one sounds a little bit different. Or is it like just worlds of difference? We were like that is a completely different
thing. There are some layers. I was as I was making it, there are some layers that sound like they live in the same family and it's swap between different layers and it feels Same album and there are other layers of when I switch that one, it completely changes the the like energy of the track.
So I'm excited for people to hear the mix and match of some of those things because I don't even know, I mean, five thousand is a lot of of options and I haven't listened to every single one yet. I still, or still printing them. So but they are, by the way, they're not. So for people that know about the get a deeper into the weeds in terms of like generative like AI generative, like this is certainly not anything like that. Yeah, the technical the people who nerd out on the technical aspects of that. This is the other side of it, if it's the simpler side I made.
Errors that could be combined in certain ways to result in mastered. Let's call them like MP4s or MP3s. It is not being generated as you meant and it's not being generated by, for example, a
I right? But you're putting together in a random order, right? Like you don't know the output until
it's, you could call it curated generate. Okay? Yeah. Gotcha. Wow, crazy insane. The pfp
side of things. So where does a rarity come in? Because
Has in some sense, you could say, there's certain like, drums that are rare. Right? Right, right. It could be on that side of the house or you could say the pfp project. Like the actual, I'm assuming it's a face of some type of something like that. There's get ready attributes to those as well or combination of both. Like, where did you net out there? I decided
to let the Rarity exist on the visual side on the pfp side because because if I started to feel like if I married audio to a visual trait,
It there are certain elements of the of the track like of the audio that I feel like I want. Generally, I want the audio to be easily accessible. And like when you go pick through these on open sea or not, you not open CMS. It be object or the like you want to that that that your average experience is a good one. Do you know what I mean? Like, people some people who have made generator projects this year. I've heard interviews of
People that are like, oh man, I didn't think this out because I put my favorite things, and my favorite attributes ended up being rare attributes. And then nobody saw them like that person came to the page full of images and they're like, oh, these are okay, but if they saw the rare ones to get, those are actually really great. It's just that the great ones were more rare. So I wanted my good stuff to be spread evenly across the collection and then when it comes to the Rarity structure, it's more about the it's more on the visual side.
There is so many different directions that people
For taking pfp type projects. And it seems like the most successful are the ones that they have lore around them or they continue up the put out a roadmap or they continue to do new drops board. Apes is a great example of the dropping sir. I'm to make modifications to pre-existing men's is this step one for you. Could you imagine dropping a drums serum that modifies, the, the audio track, and the future. How do you think about that?
I actually think, I think that
As an artist. I want to keep the roadmap wide open that this space changes so quickly. We all know like, you know, you can think about ho man some crazy stuff happened a little while ago and you think about you go. Oh my God a little while ago was like two days ago. It's like everything is moving so quickly that I would never. I for example, I appreciate if you've heard about Gary V's be friends. Yeah. He's making a laundry list of promises.
Of all of these incredible things. He's going to give you from like actual physical Goods. He's going to give to people at own, is T's two tickets to his events that he's going to do just for nft holders. I can't see doing that myself because I feel like in three weeks. I'm going to be on a whole different thing and I've already built up enough good. I feel like I've built up enough good with collector base on my fan base, especially on tasos that they know that I'm not going to leave them hanging to go.
It's actually a thing. We didn't meant, I didn't talk about is one of the reasons. I, the way I jumped back in to this was I decided to mince on. Tasos. Like a few months ago. I decided to try something out there because it was like the gas phase or solo and I wanted to be able to give fans a free and ft. Hmm. So the very first thing I meant it on Texas was free and most of the people who got it or just they
You about it because they're super fans and they were just there. Always paying attention to stuff. I'm doing online. I told him. Hey, you guys get get up. Tasos wallet. I'm going to do something special.
Was that brain dump? Is that the name of the test has?
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's the one I gave these away and the next thing they knew they had an Ft worth about three thousand US Dollars. That's awesome. And they forfeit for let's call it 50. Let's say, 50 of them had never owned an mft before and they're like scratching their head going.
Going in disbelief going. Wait a minute. This this jpeg is worth how much and they had to make the decision of like, do I hold it? All right, salad or whatever and they had that wonderful experience that all of us had not only of, I did a thing that like feel successful, like, it's all man. I kind of had a little win over here, made some money or I got a cool thing that has value. But they also very quickly wrap their head around. The idea of these entities are, like, I
Emotional connection. Now to this, that was the most interesting thing to me is that when you bring people into the space and you go, okay, I'll give you you know, you bought a thing. It's cool. You love it. I love it. I want to buy it off of you and they go on. I'm not sure because they know that they actually have an attachment. Yeah.
Yeah. That is so awesome. One question about, I'm looking at everything that you've produced an object on tasos, and I've just swear. I'm not just saying this that to kiss your ass, but these
are really good.
Enough teeth. You're very, you're very good artist. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, it's my, I appreciate that. I. This is what I that, you know, stylistically and whatever. And these are 100% you like you
do. Why don't you - yeah, the only on the ones that you're
seeing there. I didn't have any help, that's amazing. Now my upcoming drop on the ziggurats job. I had a I have helped with just assembling the layers. Dillon read, who did the atom bomb squad on the hundreds? Atom bomb squad and ft drop. Dylan worked on that. He's
Mine and then also code crafting, who's like a tasos legend, and a really a great, you know, collector and an innovator in the space. They're both helping out with the
ziggurats drop. That's awesome. Do you have any sense of what you're going to price, Matt?
Yeah. We landed on. I think 15 test. We're making it very accessible. That's awesome.
Yeah, so test for you, it's funny when I don't know how you felt about hand which was the predominant platform. Montez. There's been a lot of drama. It's been up and down and all over the place.
Lately, but we felt like when I first got in there it felt like you had the you. I was just so confusing and so you had to almost no somebody to walk you through it initially and but there was that really cool like just raw underground like gut feeling of this platform that allowed artists that didn't have the money to meant, to do very fun things. Give away their ftes for next to nothing. And is that why you were attracted?
To it because it was just like it had that type of
vibe. Yeah, it was like a little punk rock. And yeah, and it also the one thing that got a little bit, I think it was underestimated. Maybe is that you could meant some really interesting objects like you, they if you were to try and meant a music with cover art, on most platforms of marketplaces on ethereum. You would have to do it as a
A video file which is much larger than just saying OK. I want to meant an MP3 and then it asks you as soon as you would do that on hen. It would say, okay, what's your cover art? And you could upload a JPEG and your nft would link itself to both as the, the final product. So that I feel like that got over, like, people didn't like high-five each other and go, this is how it should be done. That's a really great way of handling because I don't want to have to upload a
He file like what if my song is five minutes long? That's right. A massive file and it doesn't play. Well. It's slow and whatever. So the hen the way that hen did that was great and then I started known as to notice all the interactive pieces and that's where I feel like that was a that's a ton of fun. Like you can sensibly. Put a game on meant a game, a little mini game as an mft on their site. What do you think? Just in terms of like current news? Have you followed the hen drama that? Yeah, the site.
Down and
everything. Yeah, bit. Yeah. I saw that that yanked, it down. My the only thing that I know I've never interacted with the founder of hen, but I know people that have and it's, he seems the type of person that just didn't expect this level of success, and it just set it up. Initially, to be this little thing that he was hacked on. It was open source, and I know that in a lot of people are like, a lot of creative people are like this. So, it's like, all of a sudden, you're just overwhelmed with a hundreds of thousands.
All of a sudden using your product with demands that are requested, all that stuff and I feel like there was a little bit of a just most likely just couldn't handle that much pressure. And I know that he got a little bit difficult to work with it with some people and it's understandable. This is not everybody is expecting when they set out to build something or capable of handling that type of load and stress and you know, the site was falling over all the time. I don't know if you remember but like sometimes it just wouldn't load that we scalability issues and it's just
Legend, You're a solo founder, you're a developer. You're like everything to this project and 24/7. You're on called to keep this thing alive or you have Angry mobs coming after you. I don't know. I have to feel some compassion for the type of situation.
So, did you ever have that with dagger without my own? Yes,
dig was falling over all the time and their early days like we in back in back in my time and in 2005, I used to have to go and bring new servers down to the
Data center in the rack them because you had to lie ad servers to add capacity. There was no like Amazon to make that really easy. But yeah, it was a very stressful, but I was much younger back
then so they didn't need a lot of sleep but they're yeah, I guess they're move. I guess they've done that. They're multiple mirror sites now.
Yeah. So the nice thing about it being open source is there's been a couple mirrors at that have basically popped up and they're more or less the same thing and they denied the nice thing about it. Being all in the blockchain is that these entities are not
Go away and there and all of the ipfs data and where they're being stored on distributed file storage. They're all being pinned. So, all the end of teaser save and object. I got to say he's a fantastic Explorer for all the stuff. You mentioned them earlier. It's a obj Katie.com as a great way to just that's kind of my main interface these days for all things hand and all things test based in
FTS. Yeah. Me too me, too. And that was the first thing I said to people, when they, when I started seeing some messages about and going down.
They were like, oh it is this affect your the ziggurats drop, our is, are you going to be? Okay. Are you going to have to switch to theorem or something? And I was like, no, you it's all on the blockchain. So it's and besides we're not, we wouldn't be minting on hen anyway. So, yeah, it's it. I think I expect that most people trade my and of T's will do so, on on sites. Like now there's Hickam Unk art art, right? And of course, object that you just mentioned are men. And those are basically where I'm
Going these days. That's awesome.
I'm curious. If for people that they're curious about this project, the ziggurats project. Is there a site now? That's live for? It could work in people. Go to White listed as that going to sew it be a
thing. I don't know if by the time this is this podcast is live. If the site will be up. It'll be ziggurats, dot. XY Z. So Z IGG, you are 80s dot x y z and if you know regardless just follow me, Mike Shinoda on.
And all the information will be there. I'm not separating out my Twitter feed from this. Somebody actually asked me that the other day. This is like more of a like a goal. I ended up thinking of it as a philosophical question, which was like, are you going to start doing a they said, Mike are you going to? You've been talking a lot about and of teas and crypto and all of that. Are you going to do a separate Twitter account for that news and information? Because obviously there's a majority. I think a majority of my followers don't care about that stuff, right? And I thought, I really thought about
About it. And I was, and I decided that I'm not going to separate it because I actually do believe that this movement is the future of the internet at large, not that. Everything's going to be on the blockchain. It shouldn't be. It's that wouldn't make any sense that it's going to be these conversations. We're having are going to be the foundation of the new version of the internet. And there would be no reason to treat them as a like a separate thing. Like that's eventually I'm gonna have to merge
All anyway, it's going to just be it's going to just be the metaverse or be the internet like it. Right. There's no
reason like you could create a separate account and it probably be super relevant for about three years and then they would all just merge your be like, aw. Damn. I should've just had it on my original account to
be right. Only totally.
So here's a crazy question for you. Let's pretend you're starting a new band today. Do you need a label to how do in FTS play with music?
And what do you think
about individual zoning?
Partial rights to songs.
How does the, if you unpack that in your head yet? Dude, there's so much there. I mean, yeah, even I love that. You asked that question. I'm only, I'm really not prepared to answer that question because it's so early days, the word that always gets that's been getting thrown around a lot of skeuomorphic, a lot of solutions to to the usage of a new technology and up, starting in a skeuomorphic way, which
To say that you take something you're familiar with and you just apply that approach to the new thing.
So right
now, it's oh, yeah, it's it's blockchain. So we're going to make songs and albums and put them on the blockchain. Like what if the new version of it is actually it actually changes the length
of songs. Like songs are no long. What
if they end up being like no longer 3 minutes. They're actually 60 seconds. What if there are actually five minutes. What if an album is not 12 songs, it's five.
What if it's front to back with no brakes? And that's your album and that's 1 and f t. What if they're audio-visual? What if they're even almost like a version of like a wearable? We're like, thus the album were, the song is something you can add to your avatar, it in the way that like some people will hide little Easter eggs in the Rarity attributes of an NF T. Like the other the attribute will just be in text. It won't be visible on the
You seen that for ya. So some collections do that where the one of the Rarity traits is just a, it's just a part of the code. It's not.
You just mean, yeah, it's just defined it in the actual contract so you can't see it yet. Yeah, but can you hold on?
It's got this, one's this. We look at it and you go. Oh, this one's got a rare invisible trait, right? So, yeah, like all of those things are in play, when it comes to this, next version of not only music, but games and movies, and so on.
And I'm super, I'm spending probably like 75 percent of my time. Not in the studio, making new things but talking to people in the space in person on zooms and Discord whatever to investigate, like what's possible here. Like what can we do at this next step? Because it's a it's could potentially be a very big shift in the way. We think about music. And I don't want to, by the way, the last piece I'll say about it is if it's done.
I think the way it'll get done is that it'll benefit artists. It'll be not only easy for fans, but it'll be in some cases. It'll probably be invisible so fans and I don't think that the labels will be left out or the like the previous infrastructure. Whatever. I think that they'll find ways to bring value which will be. That will be. The real question is artist will have in this in in web three. I think we're already seeing this. The fact that artists are getting more powerful.
Power and so they can say no more readily and so a label or a agent or a manager or whatever. They're going to have to come into that that conversation with some real value and earn their keep. Do you think that
the consumer will play a role in this in the upside of a band going forward? For example, let's just say we've all been in the situation where you hear some music for the first time in your like that's this band is gonna be huge.
Is Oz. This is amazing. Right? And you catch them early. There is a world where a dow would be spun up to fund a tour of theirs, or whatever. It may be to get them that initial Capital to get off the ground. And really get out there in the world. In a way that could be defined by a smart contract and distributing ownership to the fans that back, that band, early thoughts on
that. Yeah. I'm I think that's 100%. I think it's already happening. Maybe this is a really weird comparison, but
I'm a member of I own a car. I owned a bunch of ether Orcs. Have you heard of it? Either or? Okay, so it's a it's an RPG game completely on chain. Everything is on chain that I'd let that sink in like everything about this game can be done by interacting with the contract. So they release the bunch of their Genesis Orcs were minted. I think.
Three. But I didn't get there, I didn't get in and that at that moment, but I got them pretty soon after. And then you basically the actions in the game are related to farming and staking the token, the community got built up around that and they're now making more and more complex variations and elements to the game and creating low barrier to entry. Second generation characters. So, people don't have to spend a lot of money.
To get involved, and they can jump in on a lower deck. Cheaper tear,
are these movie to like, polygons for fat of for faster, or cytokines? Just did it justice to the initial
Genesis, Orcs were not. And the new version that they think. I think it was polygon. I'm not sure because it's just starting right now. It's just happening right now. I'd mention that because I think there's I think there's a version of the way a lot of the play to earn games. In particular, are starting up that
Campbell's crowdfunding and bands who find out about this or educate themselves in the space and how to do that. We'll find ways to crowdfund their band before the band even starts. So why don't you built that you're in the fifth position to build this site? It
all the smart contracts written. If your new band you can come in. You can click a button and mince all the contracts gives them a landing page. They can do ownership distribution. Yeah. Why not do that?
That's a really good idea. Kevin. Let's go.
Let me talk to you about that. After
this. This might have to kick be cut out of the episode.
I guess, I guess it's good to like say there are a lot of people already taking swings at that problem. Ranging from some of the people really, I know it like some of the people related to FWB are tackling it. There are there's AA Dias. There's oil that got started by Blau and there's so there's a bunch of people that are doing their versions of it, for sure.
Yeah. It's going.
E, I feel like we're going to see in the next six months to a year, just a whole slew of different new ways of experimenting, really? And we'll see what sticks and what doesn't obviously there's going to be some failures here as well, on the no-brainer stuff. You have to meet. I would imagine that when you eventually start touring again, do you think of in of teas as a way to say, okay, you have one of these to enter the show. If you collect more overtime and unlocks additional benefits, may be getting the show's early. Maybe have access to
Well, VIP sections all that is just like that. That's this no-brainer stuff,
right? Yeah, that feel like that's low hanging fruit. Like, yeah. Anything relating to like, access is a no-brainer, anything relating to like exclusive merch is a no-brainer. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I just think it'll just depend on how many fans end up getting on board. And part of my, I feel like my responsibility and a lot of our responsibilities for people that are in the space is too alike on.
People in the most in the safest way we can. Like I try I don't have a separate Discord 40 Watts. I have I just bring people into Mike Shinoda under the Mike. Shinoda Discord and there's in nft Channel. They're like, we're constantly bringing on board new fans. We're like, okay, you guys keep talking about it. Tell me how, what wallet. How do I get a wallet? How do I download the stuff and whatever and we lead them through the process and unzip.
Being like that Each one, teach one kind of mentality where he is spread that information and it's and trying keep your community
safe. Yeah. That's at least the next year, to two years. I think the coin B is bringing their in a few Marketplace on board. They've already announced that they're going to support more than just the ethereum network. So I have to imagine number two is tasos or Solano somewhere around there. And that's going to be just massive. Because it will say, hey, just use coinbase. Not to everyone wants to be in centralized, like Landwehr because I know a lot of people listening or like,
It is not decentralized as not your keys. Not your
known. That's true. But also, I feel like, if you ask the average crypto user. Are you scared? Are you? Do you like, or do you not Facebook / meta is approach to the metaverse. Do you not? And you promote case, you'll probably get a pretty strong dislike, right? Reaction, if you ask them. Like, okay, now, what about if Apple were to integrate a
Of lie, safe crypto wallet, into the next iPhone. And we know it's not going to be as good as Ledger. The heart of their security is that the chip is attached directly to the screen. There's nothing in between. You can't get between them and iPhone. You wouldn't radically. I don't think you could do that. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know how they're made, but let's say it's not. Let's say it's not as safe as a ledger, but it's an iPhone, and it's everywhere. Is that how do you feel about that? And I think you'd get a surprising amount of reactions of, like, I'm down with that if because
It gets so many more people involved. Like a thousands times multiplier. It'll be
crazy. Yeah. 100% like I'm a big fan of people are going to hate on this but I don't mind centralized Solutions. I think they provide customer support. I don't want to be walking my mom through metal
mask. It's that there's something to be
said about just having that extra hand holding that those types of services, provide. I understand that their customer support isn't
the best art. They've gotten dinged on that as well. But at least it is someone to point to versus it. Just being the wild west. So it'll be a combination of all those different types of services. I think that ultimately get us to mass adoption. I'm curious being an artist when you're looking in buying and holding in ft's. What do you look for? What what, how do you find the next big? Nft
artist? I lean towards illustration because that's my first love. I
Photography. I like CGR. I own pieces that are made. That way. I'm the most excited about a good illustration. It's just draws me in a little faster. Do you have
any like hin artists or any under the radar ones that the pyramid or talking about
me just so the I guess the stuff I bought on hand that I really love to. Do. You know Dila Maharani. I don't okay amazing artists like a kind of colorful.
Full line art really great artist. I really like her stuff. The crais, of course who you know amazing stuff. And then as turn terms of like new like smaller newer artists, I do like the what is real stuff. I got bought a couple of those and there's an artist who's been around forever and ever. We actually had Lincoln Park tour posters done. By this guy. His name is never see daylight. Like he, the one thing I like about Dalek is that he's been around forever. He's like a like, a note.
G Street artist who got and entities very early and he's just chugging along and hasn't had his big moment where everybody goes like wait a minute. This guy's like actually got a pretty sick like backstory and has been around forever. So yeah, I
really like his stuff. The Max Capacity. I see you have a few of those as well. The Dawes Punk's is that stuff that you collected as well? Yeah.
I collected a few Max Capacity, saw the Das punks and I like that a lot. It's since it's like derivative of
of punks. I was like, what does this guy do? That's not not punks. And I collected a couple of his other pieces that I liked a lot. Like, I can't even one of them. I can't tell you what it's called because it's just like letters and numbers, but right, they'd ever the
xjc one. Yeah, it's he takes it looks like he takes these
images and, you know, destroys them. Digitally runs them through filters and digitally destroys them and sometimes adds his name in 8-bit
font that the Cogswell hex glitches, so
Good. Yeah. Yeah, that's an artist of one. Another thing that I look for. Sometimes is an artist who's got raw skills and I can see them applying them. Like, going to an ox. The next level with it? Like, in his case. I feel like his skills are really high. All I would say if I was to suggest something I would say, like, don't make an image, that's derivative of anybody else's image. Make your own, make your own characters in your own composition and use the same, all the same tools that you've been using.
Yes, if he desired I would buy I would be. I'd be collecting everything that he did that way. Yeah, agreed.
Who is Nate Hill. I see this breaking the fourth wall. That is
beautiful. Yes. Okay. So Nate is a photographer and graphic artist who I found out about him because there is a singer named wax Wayne who is spectacular. Nobody knows about either of these guys, by the way, they're like brand basically brand-new even though they've been around for a minute, but wow.
Swain and Nate he'll work together. Wax does music primarily and Nate does the imagery and check them both out there? What Nate stuff is usually black and white very it's what's the word figuratively? It's like a picture but it's made of lines and then the wax Wayne's music is feels to me like something like a 2021 Radiohead. So cool. Yeah it is.
And then you've got some twerking Tessa.
So the story behind MooMoo the stand, which a lot of aluminum. He's listening. He's like a fan of mine and like Falls my socials like already knows Momo. Yeah, but moon was become. So before she was no, you know, her because she's probably more because she's like, so active in that Telos
Community. Yeah,
so she she started that Journey on my twitch Channel. She was like posting fanart like 8-bit family.
Art of me and animate, like drawing things that happen on my social media, or my twitch Channel. And eventually I, when I started minting and ft's, she was like, oh, I want to, but I can't. And I was like, why is she? So cuz it's a little expensive and I don't have any money and it's confusing and I was like, you need to just take the jump if you meant something your art. Your, I love your art. If you meant something, I will buy your first and ft. And that's exactly what happened. She meant it. I bought it.
She took that money and turned it around and admitting more stuff and making more art and then that propelled her into a full-on. She quit her day job, organized, got involved with a Tess's Community. Now. She's like a community leader. Not only in that space, But she's also she's from Malaysia. So she's like a spokesperson for digital artists in Malaysia and it's an incredible story. Her story. That's so cool.
Yeah. What are your thoughts on photography based in ftes?
I like them. It's not my, it's not my
Area of expertise. And I was noticing some really interesting things happening where support people who understand that space and support, that space are really starting to get vocal the last like month or two. And then what's Justin's last time? He did a twin. Our vasana twin flames. Yeah. Yeah. He there's a dow. Now, set up to own the one twin flames image. That has all the twin flames images of twins in the frame, but there's a
One where the twin passed away, right? And it's her and this note, I think it's actually the death certificate of her sister. So deep, so heavy and the community. They basis started Dow to own that image and
that's going to be called raw data how which means if you have a fraction of that image because they're fraction lysing the image, then, you are also a participant in raw data, which is cool because, you know, raw based on the raw image quality of
Photography. Is it is that going to be like multiple images?
By the Dow. Or is it just all about the one, or was it there before the image?
It was not there before the image. I believe that's the kickoff process. But I, the Dow does have much bigger plans. It's my understanding. So that's an exciting one and he launched Quantum to. So, Quantum is a platform. It's basically like our blocks for photography and ft's. So they're doing one a week. Now, one week. They did a couple right off the bat and then now it's one a week. Cool. But some great, it's a great way to. I feel like with photography. There's just so many photographers out there. Like how obviously,
There's the household names you could point to and say I should probably collect our own those, but the up-and-comers there needs to be some way to vet those and curate them in some capacity. I think that's what he's aiming to do, which would be, it's going to be fun to see how that that all shakes out. But that, that's a fun
project. Yeah, I think that'd be helpful. I think that's helpful for me. Yeah, that curation would be important because I don't know that Community very well or that application of it,
curious on the nfc's you produce so far today, you know, you look,
It has of stuff. It's beautiful stuff that you've drawn, but is any of this applicable to your bands. Are you going to be doing anything in the near future? That if you want to collect a, an album cover from Lincoln Park or Fort Minor? Like, is that ever going to happen? I wouldn't
say I'm not, I couldn't say never, but right now I think it's much more exciting to to push forward. Again, coming back to that idea of skeuomorphic applications. Like
I don't love the idea of just taking an album cover and minting it and selling it. I just think that's I don't know. I feel like it's lazy
on. That's a great Point. Actually. It is very lazy. It's a no-brainer in terms. Of course, it would sell out. Yeah, I think in a second not even that you'll have
gas warts and all
kinds of crazy stuff, but that's not the point, right? I thought
for a minute that maybe the closest thing I thought to a thing that I would do and I haven't we haven't like
The part of the issue too. Is that the my other band members are not really in this space so much like they're aware of it but not participating. And the closest thing that I thought of was like maybe something fanclub related or to treat it as treated, nf2 your token as access or a membership to something. By the way, if Avenged Sevenfold is not on your radar.
Let me put them on your radar right now. Speaking of which be coming because they are a metal band. That is wildly popular. Very successful. Also sweet guys really smart. They're Punk owners phid enza
owners. So interesting.
I mat from Avenged like he we've had some conversations about this where I was just like, dude. I think he's one of the someday. People are going to find
Out how far back and how deep in the space he goes and they're going to be like their jaws are gonna drop to the floor. I need to have on the podcast. It's I he's tough person to get because he doesn't love to do this type of study, but I don't know. We can ask him. I will tell you this though. They are doing a fan club thing. They have logo and icon called the deaf bat and they're doing death bats as basically like fan club and it's spectacular. I mean like you can maybe you don't love their music.
Maybe you don't love their art, but the idea of what they did. I gotta give them their credit man. It's really good. That's awesome.
Yeah, that's very so you said that's a VIN Sevenfold. Yep. Yep.
Mmmm shadows and I guess is it him and Brian? I think he and Brian in the two who are really leading. It wasn't a question. Sorry. Synyster Gates. Not right. I'm using is a real name. Yes. Yeah, I'm shadows and Synyster Gates but Shadows you can find him Shadows. Like I think he's I'm Shadows dot. Eat for
That's awesome. Yeah,
one of the things that happen pre and FTS that I thought was I was just like, this is so cool. It was a bummer to see who it is, whose hands it ended up in but the release of the Wu-Tang album.
Yeah, released to the public. Yeah,
and it was put up at auction or something and just to have that album and hit play and be like have your friends over and say, listen this, that Wu-Tang album that nobody else has heard or very few people.
Yeah, they've done that, they've done listenings. They've done listening parties. Oh they have now,
They have and it's and with their my impression of what they did with it is without getting details. They bought the album and they're going to share it with in the Dow and they're in contact with Wu-Tang and doing things. They're trying to do things in a way that meets wu-tang's, expectations for what they created. So, so awesome, that during NYC, entity NYC. They had the little listening party. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, it's private because you can't nobody.
Isn't in the Dow. Got to go. So they had this little listening party. And I actually, I was joking with them that they there they should have chosen a better, like chosen better speakers and everything. They did it in some like weird. You've heard it. I've not, I'm not in the Dow. Okay. Know how does one get in the Dow? I can find out? I don't know. I don't know. Is
so cool. Well, what I was going to ask you is you must have just how many Studio hours unreleased stuff to you. Are you sitting on with Linkin
Park, ready, Conte and in
in general interest is a general idea. I probably make something if you like averaged it out. I mean I have like maybe six or six digits of demos like to stuff and the vast majority of is garbage, but it's a lot of stuff. So yeah, like it's always been a thing. I've up the idea of having that much material is always like I've got these
Sets you can do something with and the as an artist the reason that stuff's not you remind people like the reason that stuff isn't out is because it didn't pass a certain threshold of quality, right? It's not good.
Yeah, I mean it reminds me of when like when Tupac passed away and all of a sudden were like three new albums and I like,
how does this keep happening? Yeah, are there more albums? But then there was some interesting
collaborations that went along with those. Some of those just pure tracks that they thought were interesting. It was just nice to hear his voice.
Voice again, you know, I think but
yeah, I mean there's a way to like take something that didn't hit the mark at a certain at the point at which it was made and revisit it through a newer lens and make something good out of it. I've heard that done. So I'm not I'm not personally I'm open to that idea but it's certainly not on my it's not the top of my to-do
list. Yeah. That just getting back to you. I was thinking what is not just taking your album cover and putting it out there. What's interesting? And obviously,
Unreleased footage is very
interesting. I think what's actually I want to like this happen this week. Did you follow the stuff about the board apes and mutant Apes? Just completely going off this
week. Not this week. I did
that. Okay. So this week I missed
24 hours of news like
24 hours of news. Yeah, this week. So it started with, I don't know what, I don't know what the floor of Apes was a week ago. I think it was in the 30s. Maybe mid 30s or something.
Up to 50 now Heath and that has a little bit to do with the price of eith, but it also has a lot to do with the fact that there was a Rolling Stone, cover with Apes on it. Jimmy Fallon bought an ape and tweeted about it. And then in the next day or the same day a couple different ape music projects got 11 oz. So mean most notably Jimmy da teeth owns a bunch of like he has this wild collection of Apes. He and Nick Adler took them to Universal Music.
And they're doing a an ape anime like a basic an avatar group there. And you saw that going to do gorillas, but real real, real Gorillaz, and like all of those they have post Malone bought an ape Timberland. Started a metaverse music company that he announced this week, like all of those things put together. It was I feel like it was a really big week for for apes and it was also a really big week for because it was like, it's this weird new.
I'm talking about what's a thing that we haven't thought of, that's coming this that lane is something. I think in terms of where I am spending a lot of time, the innovation of how to present music in a way that break some rules and feels new it. Lives over there somewhere
that makes a ton of sense.
It seems is very metaverse compatible
and it's not the obvious, right? Like it's not just in the obvious thing. Yeah, like,
just scraping.
Gather money. So you can put crap on a streaming service that pays you portions of a penny per Spin and you have to go toward a make any money at all. But then you're turing's not for everybody, not everybody's good at it. And even then it can be a real grind. Like that format. I think there's going to be a new, a whole new, like format of being a musician that opens up. It's not based on, it's not reliant on all of those things that combination things.
Exciting times. Yeah, I swear like you said, we've said this probably three times during this podcast. If it is a point at the point. Now where if you miss 24 to 48 hours of news, you've missed like 13, very important, like groundbreaking news announcements. True. It's so crazy Mike. This is this has been awesome. Anything else that you'd like to cover before before we wrap
up. I think we've done, I think we've maxed it out for today. But all right, that's
always always good.
Period. Yeah always fun to chat. It's good to catch up and ziggurats being the new drop people that want to pick one of these up which I will be one of them. You said your Discord in Ft channels. A good place where else might
think I think just follow me at Mike Shinoda. Am I ke Shi and Oda on Twitter. You can go to ziggurats dot x y z, the drop date which we did not say is going to be December 3rd. And yeah, I'm very excited about it, man.
Awesome. Can't wait. Thanks for being on the show, and then obviously, you're such an innovator in this. Space. Would love to have you back on again, every few months to talk about the madness, and, and crazy evolving world that we're living in now.
Awesome, and be happy to do it. Sweet.
All right, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you would like to help us out head on over to proof dot x, y z and click on the reviews, but at the very top and Lisa five star review, Thanks so much. Take care.
