The Truth About Performance

Hello everyone and welcome back to 33 voices.

I'm very excited to be joined by

my friend Caputo Gupta.

I don't know that I've had that I have

any conversations with any other human being about high performance and sustained Excellence as I do with him. So appeal great to be back with you my man.

Thank you. Thank you.

I want to start with you and I were just talking about your voice and I have so much respect for the manner that you work with them on their golf game and I was reminded of that over the weekend watching Rory McIlroy win the FedEx Cup, and I remember you telling me that his approach to the game is what's going to make a difference to his career. Tell me what that's all about because I got a hint to that on Sunday.

Well, I don't think that that way I don't remember saying that but you just saying that that doesn't just applied to him. It applies to anyone. It's always about the approach. It's always about the lens through which you look at something. It's never really about the x's in the O's.

You know, I don't I don't think it really goes anywhere to say. Well this is what he did. And so everyone can learn from that and go to the same thing and all those things don't go anywhere. Those are those are just sort of Pat's on the back that you know, they don't they don't mean anything it I think I think it's much more effective and applicable and practical to talk about what it is that prevents performance much more than what it is that enhances it I think knowing what the not is is a far more effective route than because no one really knows what the is is and so the knots are are actually it's a much more effective route to go.

The a strand of DNA that separates these world-class performers from the rest of the world. What do they see that the rest of us don't?

No, I don't think you know that's once again I very much shy away from the 7 habits of Effective People and I just you know, II don't so I don't want to put anyone on a pedestal and say well these guys are great and I just don't I don't I think every human being has the potential to be great. And so I don't think anyone should follow anyone or look up to anyone. So first of all, I don't think that tour players should be compared against weekend golfers. I think that scraping the bottom of the barrel that makes no sense. Why wouldn't you be better than a weekend golfer and we can golfers are used as scapegoats to make the Tour player to look better. So it really is judging within the PGA Tour de news PGA Tour versus your 72 year old with arthritis. I mean, what kind of comparison is that? I mean if you have to go that low, then you must not be very good, you know, so why would you compare yourself to again against the lowest people?

Their ability and their age and so forth. So what is it that makes someone truly exceptional and I think it really comes down to

understanding and understanding of how the game is played and understanding of what things are standing in my way that has prevented me from getting to where I want to go. I think it's much more about the roadblocks than it is the signs in the arrows saying go this way. So, you know, if you look at someone like tiger it there's a lot of things that went into that in creating a Tiger Woods and it wasn't it wasn't all x's and o's in fact X's and O's were a you know, I would say it's the minority because others have the same if not better X is a nose then Tiger but no one had his results. So that means that there must be something else and it's always in the intangibles. It's always in the viewpoints always in the level of Drive the level of inspiration the the willingness to

Things that the majority in the culture do not examine it's always in those types of things at this in the soft things not in the things that you can categorize and put on the Blackboard which is where Society always looks Society is is the culture of golf is no difference in the culture of business because it is filled with the same kinds of human beings who are afflicted by the same disorder of looking at the Cosmetic and looking at the form as opposed to looking at the source from which those things arise.

So like when you talk about when you talk about tiger, for example, and we talked about the intangibles, I know that a lot of times that leads back to introspection and leads back to the mind. Give me an example of some of these intangibles.

You know for instance Ernie L is once said when he was, you know, I think tiger had won by 15 shots the US Open at Pebble Beach and they interviewed our nails afterwards and it's a wonderfully illustrative interview because first of all, he was getting hammered by questions and the grace with which he handled. The questions was was very impressive. I mean some of the questions were very insulting actually and they shouldn't have been asked that way but he still held handled it with real real calmness and and Grace and and one of the things that he said was you know, this guy shows up every single week to a Tour event and he's at a hundred and fifteen percent his drive his level of focus his concentration his you know is it's off the charts every single week and he said I can't say that about any other Tour player.

So that's an intangible that isn't that isn't a swing plane issue. That isn't a grip issue. That isn't a how far do you hit the ball issue? That isn't a track Man issue, right. There's no technique there. You can't method eyes that so that and the bang for the buck there is huge.

To have that drive is the foundation upon which everything is built that level of

motivation,

you know, well, where does that come from? Exactly? I don't know. I don't know where DNA comes from but Tigers DNA has always been I don't want to wish win tournaments. I want to be the best of all time and that that's always been his Drive. Where does that come from? Why did that arise in him and not another player? I don't I don't know. I don't know why we have the DNA that we have but that's always been his driving force isn't isn't to win golf tournaments. It's been to be the best of all time to be a

Would you put Serena Williams in that category?

I don't know enough about Serena Williams, but I do know that their upbringing was very interesting, you know, Richard Williams that a lot of very interesting things. And once again, he was a real rule breaker. He was an outcast. He was an anti culturalist and you will you will find that thread amongst all greatness. It's never been the rule follower. It's never been the traditionalist. It's always a people who do everything outside the box not letting them play junior tournaments, you know, when they were when the girls were young playing on a tennis court with when which gunshots were going on in the background and not moving the family because the gunshots going off in the background would allow them to force them to focus and become, you know have thicker skin, you know, a lot of very interesting things a lot of eccentricities there that are very noteworthy.

So where do you see the role of coaches can filled with people like that? Like if they're sitting in a locker room talking to their coach or you know a couple days before a tournament or match talking to their coach. What are they talking about?

No, I think it's much less, you know important or instructive as to what they're talking about as it is to talk about the role of coaching. I think that just like all things, you know, it depends upon the DNA of the coach and just like there are there is no Tiger Woods besides Tiger Woods there really is no coach like that. So so it isn't about coaching. It's about the coach. It's about the human and to find a human who completely shatters the norm who turns his back on everything who rejects all norms and traditions know those types of humans are very very rare. And so it isn't about coaching because

I mean anything that's just regular people with regular DNA going to the seminars wearing their lanyards getting certified and teaching a bunch of crap. That isn't coaching that that's that's just means nothing and I mean, it doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's drivel, you know, it's about what is that rare one in a million Tiger Woods type individual, you know, what is that conversation? Like that's instructive not what the norm is like who cares?

Well your coach and you're playing a big role in the development of both of your voice who have very ambitious Futures and your coaching some very prominent very successful leaders in the world. How do you see your role with them?

it's very different as a parent than it is as with a client and not because it should be but because it is and that's actually a flaw that's a flaw in me and the flaw is that

Where there is attachment?

There is interference.

And so the greatest so the greatest role that I can provide is the one that I haven't provided yet. I have done okay, but nowhere near the nowhere near Perfection and one approaches Perfection when there is no emotional involvement. No desire in me for the student to do well.

As long as that exists there will be there necessarily must be

So let's stick with that for a moment and we'll get to the leaders where there is a little different of a relationships. Your boys are really really close.

When do you start how do you know the time is right for you to move closer towards maybe eliminating that interference?

I think the interference is always there. So the time is always right.

So it's about approaching the state in which?

Everything is on the player and finding that line as to when to say when not to say and that is not done prescriptively that is done by first reaching the internal place where you need nothing from their performance. And so I guess what I'm saying as the words as I'm hearing myself speak is that the ultimate parenting becomes not being a parent at all.

Or a coach the ultimate parenting becomes one in which you divorce yourself from the from the need or the desire for an outcome. There must be nothing in it for you. I think that is the bar. I think that is that is the place of Truth which upon reaching it one does not

Well for you knowing you the way that I've gotten to know you you want the best for them, right? That's how do you separate yourself on that that always be there?

I think I think I think I think it's

No parent wants the best for them without.

Out without being attached to the pleasure of wanting the best for them. Right so we don't ever know parent is that pure that they want the best for them only for them and there's nothing in it for them for the parent.

There's there's always there's always a level of impurity and there's always a level of there's always as they say, you know a fly in the

We'll start to see your kids

Suffer Well, I well I don't well, I'm not talking about tough. I'm not see I don't--why don't want to justify it by saying that's okay to be that way because it's tough. I'm talking about truth. It's all about truth. So I don't care if it's tough the right. I don't want to justify it. I don't want like it's ok. It's not OK it. It's it is if there is a journey the journey is in getting to the place where you are concerned only with you.

If you were concerned only with you.

That actually is the most selfless way to be.

As ironic as that may sound because as long as you need someone else to do, well you will interfere and you will say well I'm doing it for them and you're not it may be on a fringe level that they're gaining something from it. No doubt, but you are not doing anything. You're not doing it for them.

And so this is a very difficult conversation to have because very few people are at the level of desire to actually want to divorce themselves from the need or the desire to have something in it for them.

Therefore they will go to the place where you went, which is well, nobody wants to see their kid suffer and it's very difficult to get to that place. And that's only natural. It's human nature. I don't care what any of that stuff. That isn't truth. That's just cop out. Okay, and I'm not telling you I'm there. I'm actually pointing the finger at me.

Live in telling you that that is a source of

How do you do you ever specifically think about ways that you can help your boys in particular certainly some of the athletes at your work with learn how to embrace pressure?

The

pressure know I don't putt on the 18th. I don't know if it's about Embrace that's forced. I don't like Embrace and you know except verbs or don't sit well with me because it's always prescriptive it

so, why do we get people thrive in the most intensive moments when

there's no there's no y to that some people just do they enjoy it and some people do not the the question only arises when someone comes forward and says that I have a problem and the problem is that pressure really gets to me then it becomes

a something to go into

because then the person actually wants to do something about it. So then it becomes relevant.

So what do you do to coach somebody through

Well, it's never about the thing, right? The thing is never about the thing. So the pressure is just the manifestation of something that's going on deeper.

And so what is it the person feels that they might lose by winning?

What is it that the person feels that they might lose by

So the pressure is the Billboard but the billboard isn't the truth. It's the wires and following the wires all the way back through their winding source to where they're plugged into that gives electricity to that billboard. That's where the real questions lie and the issue with teachers and instructors and psychologists and coaches is that they they fall for the problem that they're presented they fall for that trap and therefore they attempt to fix the billboard but the billboard never is the problem. The problem is presented to you is never the

I think therein lies the art of coaching

a lot of sports psychologists and they tell you that dealing with pressure is something that can be taught. Well, you believe that

no. No, I don't because you'll never Own It That Way

I think I think what a person needs to learn is not the techniques of how to deal with pressure. What he needs to learn is the understanding in the insight as to why the pressure gets to him and what things are truly at stake that if those things weren't at stake and the pressure would automatically not get to him

about your son and you talked about the importance of ownership that when that ownership when that that that real full-fledged ownership is there then you'll start to see the type of progress that you want to see. What do you what is that type of ownership look like

yeah, the dangerous word when used as mentioned in nakedly without context because I know where everyone's in a go with that they're going to jump all over the prescription bandwagon and the bowl type word is a ownership is that you must be you must own and be you know, own your actions me responsible for what you said.

Not what we talked about. So let's just sort you. Look at that real quick before that train leaves the station ownership. What we were talking about earlier was we were talking about ball striking and so the ownership of one's artistic movement in this case striking a golf ball. So the so to me it needs to be owned without any chases and something cannot be owned if you attack the mechanics and the technique and use that as the lens through which you look at the movement because as long as you look at the technique in the mechanics of put your arm here, then the next step is to do this and then don't go across the line. Don't get laid off when you come back down the hips lead the, you know, lead the downswing and then you swing left and leave the clutch of the clubface is square at impact, you know.

Those things and that the track man's and that all the nonsense when you chase it that way you chase forever.

Because you can never own a physical Movement by focusing on the actual physical movement.

You have to own the things that that you already have which give you Clues as to whether the physical movement is on or off as opposed to a coach standing behind you telling you that they're on or off and if you look at the evidence for that being the truth, you have people on the PGA tour who've been working with a swing coach with 30 years or various different ones. Well shouldn't you have owned it by now?

What have you been doing for 30 years. So that must mean that must mean that very fact that they that they still need someone to tell them that they think something is off and that this is often that this is off that means that they are relying upon an external agency to guide their physical movement. Therefore they cannot arrive at ownership. It's like tigers at once tigers are the only two guys who own their swing Moe Norman and Ben Hogan.

And they woke up every single day. This is his quote he woke up every single day knowing that they were going to get well.

Now that's a he said that in a way that that's like it's mystical right and and and actually that is Mystical in today's form and technique and Method obsessed environment. That is Mystical, but that is all that matters. It's about putting an end to all the chases.

You know and it also comes down to who you are like like it isn't that anyone needs to listen to me. This is just not okay with me to not own something but if someone else might say in the majority actually would say this they would say, you know, what's wrong if I have to work with a coach and I hired the coach. Listen, I got 20 million in the bank or higher coached him behind me, right? He's late if I have a question, I put them on speed dial. So hey, what am i ball going? Right and left heel comes down behind me again. Why what's wrong with that? And I wasn't nothing's wrong with that. Nothing's wrong with I could never do that that that to me would make me cry means all never owned anything that you know, like Nicholas said Nicholas said that he saw his coach once a year and Jack route never once stepped onto a onto a tournament grounds and because he wanted Jack to be his own coach and that allowed

Him in the middle of around in the background on Sunday to be able to fix his own swing. Well, you're not going to have that if you have speed dial coaches, so it depends what's important to you. And if that's okay with you then that's okay with you. It depends upon the person.

Well, that's really intriguing to me because let's shift gears for a second to talk about how that translates to a leader running a company you coach you may not want to call yourself a coach you work with leaders who are running big companies important companies prominent companies. What is your role with them? How do you ignite that human Potential from them?

I don't know.

I don't I don't know what it is that I do. I just don't know. I don't remember conversations. I don't remember how it how results came about. I didn't make any specific result come about. The only thing that my allegiance is to is the truth. And so the one thing that I can say with absolute certainty, the one thing that I do know is that when a human being is exposed to the truth.

something fundamental within him begins to change

and I don't know how that Alchemy happens, but it is an Elixir that is too potent to not have an

T' so do you when do you know is it in the questions? They're asking you is it in the dialogue that you guys are having? When do you get a glimpse at that person that you are a confidant to is getting closer to that truth?

Because there's a level of ownership there to right they have to own it. Just like we're talking about yeah

professional athletes.

Yeah, when they notice that the reactions that they normally had two things.

Are now different without them trying to do anything different.

That's when you know, something has changed something fundamental without any practice. No practice.

No, Behavior change no implementation of a technique or a method no deep breath know when this happens. I will walk away and countif I nothing nothing when the initial reaction to the thing is fundamentally different than it normally is than it has been for years without having done a thing. That means something in the viscera.

Has changed

and does that mean a heightened level of awareness of themselves? Is that where a lot of this stuff starts for these leaders?

I think we're a lot of it starts is the movement away from prescriptive ways of thinking I think that is the greatest tectonic shift which occurs in a human being is the movement away from the

Well takes a hell of a lot of guts sometimes especially in business when you receive funding from a you know, significant amount of funding. You've got people on your board who?

Have achieved the level of success and acclaim and who are almost kind of expecting you to follow a certain path because they want to return on their money takes a lot of courage to say. No. I'm going to do it a different way.

It only takes courage.

If it is acceptable to you to do it the traditional way.

It doesn't take courage.

doing it according to the way within you is non-negotiable.

See this can't be an intellectual decision then it's courage and then it usually reverts it doesn't last so only went in only when you can't do it that way and you're willing to be fired. Not that you should not that that's a good but that's courageous. But for whatever reason you just can't it goes against your nature.

That's not courageous. That's just inevitable.

Without naming names. Do you have some examples of some situations with some of the people that you've worked with who have been able to have that level of ownership and have started to recognize their approach or their reaction to certain things has shifted and what type of impact has that had on their companies?

So absolutely but none of those were orchestrated by me. Well if I know because there was no because I had no goal in

mind if it wasn't for you.

You know, we may not maybe not necessarily the prescriptive approach but we would have continued to do what we would have doing. That's the

truth. Well, okay, but I'm saying it happened by side effect, right? It happened as a natural effect of a cause. It wasn't because I did this I would I'm the most clueless of all as to what I might have done. I don't even know what I said yesterday. You asked me for questions to begin this dialogue. I didn't remember any of them. So, okay. So so there's nothing there's nothing as you said prescriptive that I did to make that happen because I wasn't even looking for something to happen.

It's just it's just a it is just a it is not it is just an exposure to the truth. That's what it is. It is it isn't that I said this all right, but

you'll observe certain things that perhaps I was blind to in the

past. Maybe maybe but even I mean if I may be honest those things sort of came through me, you know, they didn't really come from me. So I'm very hesitant to take any credit for anything because

Because I don't own it it just appears, you know, so I can't walk around with a billboard saying look what I did it just came and so if it came that means it came from somewhere else. So that's the owner right it wasn't me. But but yeah, maybe in the in the in the exchange in the dialogue in the examination the exploration that some things came out that as you said make made the person look at it differently and you know made a shift by way of a question. Absolutely those things do happen. And

do you see that once that shift and when you recognize it as their Confidant coach whatever you want when you recognize that somebody's made that shift and if consistently gone to a different approach to handle thing these things do you see it sustainable? Is that do I just kind of

Yeah, that's the difference between prescription and Truth. There are some consistent phrases that I'll hear again and again from people who have experienced this and that is that what I would rather die than go back and be the old way friend. And so the thing about truth is that once you

once you transform you never transform back, but in change through Behavior or prescription or therapy you tend to for your for the whole of your life you tend to always live in a in a flux of today. I was good and today wasn't yesterday wasn't so good and you always flux back and forth.

You change back?

But when you when you get a glimpse of that truth, you feel that resorting back to the old ways is torture compared to living in the space that I'm living right now.

Yes, because the only reason that you were doing it the old way to begin with was based upon your level of understanding which resulted in you doing it the old way once you arrive at a new level, then that means that your fundamental understanding has changed.

So therefore the inevitable way now is the new is the higher level.

You mentioned your you show up differently because of the relationship with your world leaders that you work with obviously as opposed to the boys. How do you show up for the CEOs or Founders Executives that you work with?

by not showing

So I have a meeting with you in 15 minutes. How what are you thinking about you just do you just show up and in his it just basically me coming to you with her. Here's a shit that I'm dealing with.

Yeah, the greatest so-called input that I could provide is input that does not come directly from my mind. It comes something that comes in a channeling speaking in tongues fashion through me that I do not interfere with that is the best way that I can provide Insight. So I literally mean that when I say, how do I show up by not showing

And how do you help them? I mean, do you give the people that you work with working with homework tooth to

know my God? No, how could you even go there?

Never in a million

homework about

There's no practice.

Those are all prescriptive modalities that make you focus upon an activity in the hopes that the execution of that activity will lead to a fundamental change, but it will not it will only make you focus upon the activity itself. And therefore you will get better and better at doing the activity, but will not reach the thing for which the activity was

Makes a hell of a lot of sense couple questions that I promised some people that had to ask you. There are a lot of people out there that listen to us who are in the business of selling and that groups. It seems to always be motivated by a beating last quarter and last year and that becomes exhausting when you talk to, you know, Elite sales people about how do they start to develop or what mindsets they need to get in to develop a level of sustained Excellence word isn't the gold. It's something bigger. What should they be thinking about?

Well, they're too focused if that's their approach. They're too focused upon selling the other without having first sold

Well, that's that that's the training that they get right. That's usually

well. Well it is if it's not effective. I mean the it's easy to sell something when you know that selling it for any price at all is too low.

And no one gets there are very few get there. So it isn't it isn't about selling to another it is about examining what you really have what the truth about it really is and the place about your product where you are. That is the success or the failure in your

selling it.

I give me an example of what you're talking about when you say the place.

The the the level of the level to which you are convinced that this thing will do X.

Better than anything else or that you can't get it anywhere else. Then the selling will arise from there and you won't have to do much selling. It will sell the the problem is that people don't get to that place and they're not really taught to get to that place. And even if they are they're not done so prescriptively. So it's a non-starter. I mean if you're selling used shoes. Well, I mean, it doesn't really matter then because you know, it it depends what you have and if what you're selling is a commodity that everyone on the corner is selling

Then you will likely be tempted to sell based upon price and that is a Road to Nowhere. That's a road to Poverty. So

if you have for instance a restaurant and there are other restaurants who are obviously selling the same type of food that you are then it really then the issue becomes one of marketing.

And marketing is a very very interesting subject because it is all about the human mind and it is not about once again. We return to the same place. It is not about technique in method and I wrote a discourse about this not too long ago, and I don't know what it's called the truth about. What was it called topic because it's all about

The mind of human beings and not about the 15 things that you can do to get the word out.

What's a fascinating topic and you can I've never gone there with you about this idea of marketing, right? And it's something that maybe at some point. I think you said something I've and I may be screwing it up. It's about why all marketing is a scam or why

yes. Yes. Yes something to this. That sounds about right? Yes

would be a fascinating conversation that we could have because that's a whole different topic that is based on a lot of prescriptions, but two more quick things and we can at least pause for this segment and you and I kind of touched hinted on this a little bit when we spoke about earlier this week. There are a lot of leaders out there and I don't know if it comes up with people that you work with but there are a lot of leaders out there who are very Vigilant about working males working with females females working with other females and so forth. And so, you know, and so on in this kind of era that we're living in a me too. How do you recommend that male leaders have relationships with

Executives female executive have relationships with other female Executives, you know in the modern society today. What what what is crossing the line in your opinion?

I think crossing the line is when one diminishes his native human or her native human capabilities and one diminishes his or her native human capabilities when they begin to view themselves as a him or a her

It is about the human and what the human is imbued with as opposed to the limitation that one imposes upon themselves when they view things through the lens of male and female.

So is that a conversation that you would have with your team? Let's assume I have an executive team of 10 people half and half is that something is that one of those non-negotiables that we need to establish as a team is to talk to one another as humans and to kind of put our feelings aside.

I don't think it'll work.

Because it's all about the DNA of the individuals to whom you're speaking. You cannot you cannot drop information on top of people like confetti. It doesn't work that way. Most of the things that I say are not going to be applicable to the vast majority of human beings, even though they are fundamentally applicable to all human beings. But in order for something to get into the bloodstream it has to arrive on the doorstep of an individual who has a particular DNA whose blood stream is open to such a thing.

So because you've been working with me and I made that shift that you're talking about and I want to have this conversation with my team.

Well, then is that it's about that. It's about you.

Listen about your team. You can sprinkle all the fairy dust on top of your team and they're all just laugh at you. They're not going to do anything that you say. So the greatest thing that you could do, the most effective thing that you could do was for you is for you to imbibe the truth and whatever dealings that you are in with that dead that that shows up through you. That's all you can do and it and as long as you focus upon as long as you focus your efforts upon trying to change the mind of another or to make him better or to Enlighten them you are wasting your time because the fact is there's only so many years that we as humans live and those years are most effectively spent perfecting ourselves. And if something is ever going to get across it is going to get across through osmosis much less.

then

so the byproduct of me perfecting myself is others getting better who are around me

if it is going to happen at all that is how it is going to happen. It is not because you give a

All right. Last thing somebody asked me yesterday what constitutes a great life for appeal?

So I thought it was a cool question. How do you define a great life or

do you know I don't think that the majority are ready for this but I the great life is which in which one is completely oblivious to himself.

That is the great life and that that means that one functions in a way that is organic and natural from a place of non-ego without trying to be egoless.

To understand that everything that a human being says is filtered through his own personal selfish desires which are based upon the foundation of ego and nothing is pure and to arrive at the place that everything is done from a place of organic naturalness as a natural effect of a cause without any attachment to the person who is saying

Are you there?

How

close but well, I don't know how close but I will say that that is a 24/7 driving force of my

And the byproduct of that I assume that starting with your boys and everyone around you it just becomes.

I mean just becomes the way to live, right? It's becomes a non-negotiable.

Well, it's the only way to truly live, but I wouldn't recommend it

to anyone.

Well, it's it's a good visit to have how about we leave it like that? Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you.