Welcome to the making cents podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you are not currently on our subscriber feed. And we'll only be here in the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of The Making Sense podcast. You'll need to subscribe at Sam Harris dot-org there. You'll find our private RSS feed to add to your favorite podcast track along with other subscriber, only content.
Ain't we don't run ads on the podcast and therefore, it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one.
Anyone over 40 probably has very Vivid memories of September 11th 2001. I certainly do. I can remember how angry I was in those first few days or months. Really?
I was angry over the event itself, of course, and for the loss of
life,
and for the sheer disorder that had been Unleashed in our world.
But as the days and weeks and months were on, I became, especially angry over, how confused, otherwise saying and well-educated people were about the threat. We now faced, what I saw all around me was a kind of implosion of moral intelligence and those who saw our enemy clearly were often driven by their own dogmatic religious beliefs.
In my experience, the only people in the US who could be counted upon to understand what we faced were fundamentalist Christians, which gave me very little basis. For hope that we would play our cards, right? As many will remember the sky on the East Coast on 9/11, was unusually beautiful.
It was a condition that's apparently described as severe. Clear by pilots. Most of us had never heard that phrase until after it was used on 9/11 to describe the unlimited visibility of that morning. It strikes me as a very apt phrase to describe how I felt on that day and really, ever since more left from the moment that the second plane United flight 175.
Crash into the South Tower of the World Trade Center.
From that moment forward. I have been unusually alert, ^, bad ideas.
Up until the moment that the second plane hit, it was possible to imagine that what had happened at the North Tower, have been an accident.
I don't actually remember what I was thinking at the time. In fact, I'm not entirely sure what time I started watching the news coverage that morning because it was very early on the west coast, but I remember the difference between understanding that one plane had crashed into the World Trade Center and understanding the two plans ahead.
And that difference is extraordinary.
With the first plane more or less everyone thought that they were witnessing a tragedy.
And whether it was some kind of horrific navigation error or mechanical malfunction.
I mean, what could it be?
Condoleezza Rice. Bush's National Security advisor have been briefed that July about an impending. Al Qaeda attack, even one that might involve the use of hijacked aircraft, but upon learning that a plane had hit the North Tower, even she reports thinking. Well, that's a strange accident.
And that doesn't actually surprised me.
There's no question that 9/11 represents a massive failure of intelligence. And this is something that's well documented in Lawrence, Wright's book The looming Tower, but in the moment in the presence of the unthinkable, it is hard to think. Clearly, no question.
There were 17 minutes between flight 11, hitting the North Tower and flight 175 hitting the South.
So there were 17 minutes to live with the illusion that we were witnessing a tragic accident, and his horrible aftermath flight 11 at hit the North Tower between the 93rd and 99th floors.
No, one outside the building could have known this at the time but it had destroyed all the stairwells trapping over a thousand people above the point of impact. So, I believe it's true to say that no one who is above the 92nd floor in the North Tower survived.
And in those 17 minutes, many things happened that are very hard to think about and some seem very hard to understand.
First, in the South Tower, many people saw no need to evacuate. In fact, people who did begin evacuating were told to return to their desks. Even in the North Tower many people who are below the zone of impact felt no urgency to evacuate. They thought the fire department would just put out the fire and many thought they were being responsible. In leaving the stairways, clear for the fire Crews to ascend.
It's just an amazing detail given what was about to happen?
It seems almost no one had an inkling that a fire of that sort could lead to a structural failure and at the whole Tower could collapse.
We have testimony from people in the South Tower, who gathered at the north-facing windows and watched as papers came billowing out of the North Tower and rain down on Lower Manhattan like confetti.
And then suddenly came the recognition that some of the objects that were falling were. In fact, people, an estimated 50 to 200 people jumped or fell out of the towers before they collapsed.
There's the famous falling man image that appeared on September 12 in newspapers all over the world and they never appeared again, and I believe some news organizations briefly ran videos of people jumping but then everyone seems to have decided that that was just too much and it was too much.
However, even in some of the more benign videos, the just show The Towers burning at some distance. You can still hear the crash of people hitting the ground.
No getting around it. There is something. Especially heartbreaking about these jumpers.
On a day, when everything was heartbreaking.
So just imagine what it was like to be in the South Tower, witnessing this horror unfold, we're standing on the street looking up. It's just an impossible moment that would seem to admit of no further possibility of astonishment. Right? And then comes the Roar of the engines of flight 175 traveling, at nearly 600 miles an hour.
There are several videos of this and they never cease to be astounding.
The imagery aside even the sound is astounding. We never hear the sound of a large commercial, airliner flying at full speed up close, that Roar of the engine alone told us that something was profoundly wrong with the world.
So, what changed with the second plan?
Well,
it proved the intentionality of the ACT.
And the suicidality of it and therefore to establish its ideological origins. In fact, it established the truth of what was happening as fully as it would have. If you could have heard the hijackers shrieking Allahu Akbar from the cockpit of the plane. With one plan, the same behavior could have been the result of mental illness, right?
But, not with to the severely mentally ill. Don't organized in this way.
So in that moment, everyone was asking the question what force on Earth could get people to do something like this.
And those of us who knew something about the differences among the world's religions didn't have to spend very long searching for an answer. And I don't remember how long it took to implicate Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. As I recall. Bin Laden said something celebratory, but somewhat ambiguous soon thereafter.
But didn't take clear credit for 911 until around, 2005 or 2006. But very soon I think, within 24 hours or 48 hours at most the fact that we were dealing with Islamic extremists of some sort was established.
And then the experience for me was something like a feeling of Limitless Clarity on a few points along with an ability to spot the moral confusion of others, at what seemed like a very great distance, of course, this will sound utterly tendentious and even delusional. To those of you who disagree with me about the connection between extremist Islam and Islam or those, who Imagine That America has
Standing to even complain about the events of September 11th, because we've always been the world's worst terrorist State. These are obscenely, stupid positions, but they are not Straw. Men. I've argued with these people ever since the moral relativists, and the people who think there's no real connection between any religious ideology and human behavior. The anthropologists and sociologists who have convinced themselves. That religion, is always a
Text for economics or social status or politics, or some other terrestrial variable. There are seemingly unlimited numbers of over educated people who imagine that nobody really believes in Paradise. Not really. And I spent more than a decade arguing with these people and I'm honestly, not sure what the result of all of that has been, but I know that I don't have anything new to say, on the topic.
It's such a simple point and I'm always mystified that people don't see it or refuse to see it.
and some political scientist will emphasize the territorial claims of certain jihadists or their sense of humiliation say,
But when we look at the claims themselves, when we hear what these people say, both in their public and private conversations in many cases, we know what they say in private, it always comes down to one thing above everything else.
Paradise.
Yes, Osama Bin Laden objected to the presence of foreign troops on the Arabian Peninsula. That's what motivated him.
So that sounds like a quasi, rational political grievance, right? But American troops, were there at the request of the Saudi government. We had saved them from a likely Invasion by Saddam Hussein. They wanted us there. Osama. Bin Laden's. Grievance was theological. It was in his view a sacrilege to have infidels in the Holy Land. Muhammad himself and said, there should be no two religions there and Bin Laden was rich enough to do.
Thing he wanted with his life.
There is no economic explanation for what he chose to do. And the religious explanation is perfectly explicit and perfectly rational given the requisite beliefs.
I mean, if after all, we've witnessed in the intervening years, having seen privileged people living in the west, join the ranks of the Islamic State by the thousands dropping out of medical school in London to join the caliphate.
If you think it's all just politics and economics and social bonding that gets people to behave this way.
Well, then I think there really is no reaching you. And in that case you are as far from the reality of what happened on 9/11 as the 9/11 truth conspiracy theorists. Are these people who took, what was probably the most witnessed event in human history and turned it into a kaleidoscope of paranoid illogic.
They 1.16 percent of Americans claim to believe that 9/11 was an inside job that we did it to ourselves to motivate a war in Iraq, to steal their oil, right? Rather than just purchase the oil. We decided to fly planes into our own buildings and murder ourselves and start a couple of wars.
Because that would have been what? Less expensive.
Of course, this prefigured all the madness that was to come.
I mean this was before social media. Can you imagine what 9/11 would have been like if we were all on Twitter?
There were people, the probably still are who believe that the planes weren't planes that the Pentagon had been hit by a missile, not American flight 77. It didn't matter that. Some people had spoken to their loved ones on that flight up until the moment of impact did matter. That others had seen the plane crashed into the Pentagon with their own eyes. It didn't matter that. There were plane Parts on the ground, right? No, it was a missile. Proving the involvement of our own military.
In fact, some people believe that the planes that hit the Twin Towers weren't planes either, they were Holograms.
And they believe that the voicemail messages from the doomed passengers were faked by CIA technology.
And I believe that all the people who were supposed to have been on those planes were quietly murdered by our government.
And they believe that the towers collapsed not because these buildings weren't designed to absorb the impact of fully fueled passenger. Jets know, they had been rigged to explode for months, an army of psychopaths had smuggled explosives into these buildings in the dead of night.
Now, you can take a few of those Preposterous assertions all a cart, or you can take the whole lot. That's what millions of our neighbors claim to believe, about 9/11 before the Advent of social media. Can you imagine what would happen now? Anyway, back in the real world. We launched a war on terrorism, which was always a misnomer if you'd like to continue listening to this.
This conversation, you'll need to subscribe and Sam Harris dot-org. Once you do you'll get access to all full length episodes of The Making Sense podcast along with other subscriber, only content including bonus episodes and a mas. And the conversations. I've been having on the waking up app, the making sense podcasters ad-free and relies entirely on listener support and you can subscribe. Now at Sam Harris dot-org.