What a family welcome to episode, 248 of the genius life.
What's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of The Genius life. I'm your host Max Loop. If you're a filmmaker health and science journalist and New York Times bestselling author, I've dedicated my life to unraveling the science behind our choices, including what we eat and how we live affect our cognitive and physical performance, how we feel, and our health span and risk for disease. This podcast is all about how to live in that optimal state, which I call living like a genius.
Guys, on today's episode of the show. I welcome dr. Ouma Naidu dr. Naidu is a Harvard trained psychiatrist professional chef nutrition specialist and best-selling. Author of this is your brain on food. On today's episode you are going to discover how to make small steps toward better, mental health, every day using a strategy that dr. Naidu has honed over Decades of clinical practice, you're going to learn why keeping blood sugar? Steady is not only helpful for metabolic.
Health but how it also affects your mental health and why it's important to avoid quickly. Digested simple carbohydrates, you're going to hear about the best anti-inflammatory spice combinations. How saffron could boost your mood, how to feed your gut, the power of omega-3 fatty acids and where to find them and so much more I loved having this conversation with dr. Dr. Naidu, who is a powerful advocate for the burgeoning field known as nutritional Psychiatry which you know, I've talked
Quite a bit about in nearly all of my books as well as on this podcast. But doctor, and I do brings a powerful clinical ends to this conversation and I'm so excited for you to listen to it. This episode of the show is sponsored by a G1 by athletic greens. I love athletic greens ag1 because it helps you to truly film nutrient gaps in your diet, promote gut health and support whole body Vitality. One daily serving delivers a comprehensive blend of nine count mm9
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One free year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs of a G1 with your first purchase athletic. Greens.com genius. Check them out. Well guys how you been hanging in there question? Are you signed up for my weekly must-haves? Yes. Know if not, I'd love to have you emails go out every Friday and they're short sweet and fun. From brands that I'm loving to science that I am obsessing over to my most recent Netflix binge watch to sign up. Head over to Max Luca, vir Das
On / newsletter, and enter your e-mail to simple as that. And I will see you on Friday before we jump into today's episode with doctor and I do. I also just quickly want to share this lovely review with you that somebody from the genius. Life fam, left on the Apple podcast, app hula, girl, 00. Shared loved the interview with. Matt Nathanson, can't wait to listen to more. Thanks, no Hulu. Girl, 00. Thank you and you're in luck because we have many more Kick-Ass episodes coming in fact, starting
Next week, we are bringing back bonus episodes. Every month, we are going to be doing an extra episode on the first Monday of every month. So stay tuned for that. We've just got too many great episodes in the can that I don't want to. Wait. I want to get them out to you sooner. So leave a rating and review for the show on the Apple podcast app or your favorite pod. Cap podcast, app of choice. Make sure that you're subscribed. And now, without further Ado, here's my conversation with the brilliant dr. Ouma Naidu. Here we go Moomin. I do welcome to the show. How's it
going?
It's going great Max. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me.
Thanks for being here. You're based in New
York, I'm base between Boston and New York.
Boston is because it because of your affiliation with
Harvard. Yes. God. It's that and my husband's job. So we try to be in both places.
Love it. Well, I'm excited to have you wrote the wonderful book. This is your brain on food and I'm excited to talk all things. Brain food and specifically nutritional Psychiatry, which is sort of like a big topic for you and your unique in that you're a
Harvard trained psychiatrist, but you're also a chef, which is super cool and you have a specialty in nutrition. How did you come to synthesize all of those seemingly disparate areas of X
expertise? Thanks to the question Max. You know, hindsight is 20/20. I would like to say that I followed things that I love to do, but I think there were two very big moments in my life and my career, which brought these intersections together. I went to culinary school.
All because I loved to cook and I wanted to learn more for myself, just to to improve that. And I studied nutrition because I had a patient early on, you know, kind of a Meek Psychiatry resident prescribing medications and this patient yelled at me thinking that I had caused him to gain weight after taking Prozac. And while I was new to prescribing, I knew that it wasn't that just by looking at the data, but he also had this massive cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee in his hand.
And, and something intuitively calls me to ask him, or what did you put in that bowl? And when I was able to break down for him, the empty calories. He was consuming. I saw his eyes light up like, you know, he was he actually said I can do something about this, but I understood in that moment. It was a very big aha moment for me because I realized if he knew that he could act, there was an action step, it wasn't just providing information about a healthy diet. It was, this is something you can do.
We grew to have a great therapeutic relationship, he needed medication much lower dose, and he lost weight over time. So, I saw that in action. And I realized that, by, by a patient or client someone having information how differently they can interact. The second moment in my life, which was also an aha moment when I was unexpectedly diagnosed with cancer. Hmm. And I therefore unexpectedly became my own test subject. I found myself on the first day of my chemotherapy,
Treatment really unbounded lie, anxious you mean not able to sleep well and I actually was afraid because I knew the side effects of all the medications I was about to face and on the morning of my treatment I was trying to really ground myself, calm myself down and I realized why am I not doing what I tell everyone else in my practice to do which is lean into my what I'm eating you know lean into all the holistic sort of integrated.
Care that I do, and that was the missing piece and I started to do much more of that. And so the way that I handled my own treatment became the blueprint for what I did in my clinic there on after, you know, working in a very integrated way. But also paying attention to those small details that we sometimes lose when we when you eating a healthy meal or whatever it is. So, those two moments really pull together these different experiences and training to make
The work for me to be ready to become my mission.
Wow. And when was it, was it with that first patient that you made the connection between food and
mood. I just, I realized that there was a connection there to what was happening with his weight, and I realized interpreting, the information was very powerful to a patient that he could create not just an awareness but an actual action step, then as I began to
Watch this more and study more about nutrition. I realized there was this unfolding science rate, the science of the gut microbiome. The signs that we in fact are what we eat, but we will not really paying attention to that and therefore nutritional Psychiatry began to be something that I wanted to talk more about the world. And then I had the opportunity to support of my hospital to really start a clinic and start to to, to do the work.
Just just an amazing just to paint the picture for listeners and viewers just to illustrate how far we've come in this field. When you were going to medical school and training your specialty which is which is Psychiatry. Was there the sense like where you taught that food can have an impact on the way that we feel on anxiety, depression? No? Brain? Fog,
Etc. No, this is a very nascent field and it, if you think about the signs, you know, Hippocrates eons ago, made that connection between
I mean disease and the gut and the Brain, but it really is newest science designs of the gut microbiome I think between 2012 and 2017. There was something like, 13,000 articles in connecting that science but along with that the connection around food and nutrients came and I don't want to overstate it, it's still evolving. That the connection is there. And what I feel Max's, you know, we're not, we're not asking you to do anything. That's rocket science.
He's a simple, habit changes, and very powerful one. So unless you have an allergy or intolerance, why not? Think a little bit differently about how we eating, we can all improve a little bit, you know,
I couldn't agree more. So if the person listening to this wants to at least with regard to nutrition, do whatever is within reach for them to do to attain spectacular. Mental health. What are the kinds of foods that they should be
eating? Well, I like people to think about it in the following
Way. And then we going through this into the specifics. I like to people people to think about it as so SE W. The first tip I have is swap so think about something during this time that you've kind of stalked up maybe the cookies and you know in your kitchen whatever it is we can always swap. At least one habit and the fact that you've identified it's a habit. You want to swap means that you realized it's a little bit of an issue for you. Maybe maybe you seeing it as a waistline issue but reality I think you and I both know it's
really much less about the food on your plate today or the number on your scale tomorrow. It's the overarching pattern of what we're doing. So swap, one thing that you know you're not is not the healthiest for you. Number two is eat something differently. So maybe you want to include fermented foods, maybe you want to tap into your spice cabinet, which is no calorie salt, free sugar, free, great way to improve flavor, but also boost boost the brain benefits and the W is for walk. But walk,
Represents movement of some kind, it also is that that broad idea of a holistic model, you know, mindfulness gratitude practices, time Outdoors, but movement in some way and integrating more methods to feel better. So, stop start with those three things because they will, they will actually tap into different things and then thinking about how you feeling go into specifics food. So, what I do in this is your brain on food, is safe for the condition of anxiety. I
walk you through the science behind the stuff that you really want to cut back on and avoid specifically for anxiety. But the things you can Embrace and add to because rather than tap into the diet lemmas the food Wars and the food restrictions we can to get into in this country. You know how Bountiful is it to have many things you can choose from that's amazing. If the fiber from, you know, simple things like vegetables and food there being no, you know, we worry about our protein grams but one in 10, Americans, eat enough fiber in the diet,
So knowing that we can start to rework, someone's really their nutritional Psychiatry treatment plan of. Just their food plan, how the rating
love that? Let's talk. I want to talk a little bit about carbohydrates. Yeah. Within the context of anxiety because we've talked about, I think on this podcast, in the past, the value of minimizing glycemic, variability, or minimizing glycemic excursions by reducing high glycemic,
As you know, sugar-sweetened Beverages and things like that. But I think that what we haven't necessarily talked about enough and I'm curious to hear you unpack. This is also the fact that eating too few carbohydrates can trigger anxiety because it's essentially a stress on the body. Yes. So what so what is your take on the appropriate amount of carbohydrates, how can we sort of determine that for ourselves?
Etc? And I'm glad you said determine for ourselves because we are understanding what
More and more. They'll be see patients. We see the work. We see the research that it's highly individualized. So that's much more personal like you and I might have a different requirement. We also know that metabolic health is so linked now to mental help. And that's what carbohydrates come in for the average individual who may have may be taking medications in mental health. And many of the medications do cause weight gain, they might have to be even more careful about maybe, you know, a
Utik carbohydrate ratio of what they're eating and they may want to work with the clinician or dietitian or nutritionist around that because any, you know, deviation from the lower glycemic and the more complex carbohydrates will affect their weight. But for the most part of good guidance is make sure that you're eating the food groups, unless you have an allergy or intolerance and go for the higher quality carbohydrates, which are the complex carbohydrates. Just
Eat a ton of them. I think you and I would agree that the food pyramid of school days is completely you know turned around and countries like Denmark have an inverted food permit. Incidentally just kind of cool. So those servings at the bottom of the triangle, with the 10:52. I think servings of what was essentially carbohydrates. No longer works. We know that, but that doesn't mean we need to exclude them entirely. So I say, you know, whole grains and healthy whole grains. Expanding, you know, your repertoire Beyond
In say what, people generally know, things like oatmeal, which people understand, but things like chia seeds, chia pudding, things that also have fiber and protein, and you can make easy recipes with that being said, the thing I want to share is that but simple carbohydrates. They kind of go through our system like a rocket and if you eating that doughnut for breakfast, by the time you get to your desk or your drive to work, or commute, you need a second or third donut and much more because you're hungry and people must
Take that for you know the same as eating vegetables or cat on omelet with lots of veggies in them, you know. So I actually appreciate something you said about eggs recently because they really a great protein and rather than get into why eggs are not good. There's so many so many sources that brain brain Rich nutrients and good for you. So there's a great example at the protein. Have the appropriate carbs with that,
At a whole grain version and you know, if you are struggling a little bit with your waistline, then you've got to be careful about the types of carbs you eat.
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And is it? Because when they, you know, after after the
insulin, this insulin spike,
a those clears, the glucose right from the blood, then it can, it can basically send you hypoglycemic. Is that, is that the
mechanism? That's one of the mechanism. So, people have the simple Cobb, they have that blood sugar Spike and then they have almost no whole grain, no complex Cobb in their gut that can cut, you know, can stay the longer
Amount of time and have them be satiated that can show up and anxiety as a feeling of hypoglycemia and jitteriness. The other thing that I feel we overlooked is when you if you have a say you have a nice whole grain breakfast with a good source of protein and fat. So say you, you know, you have eggs, you have lots of veggies and that and it's going to break down in your in your system and get digested, much more slowly. So I always say five.
Is your friend in anxiety because you remain on an even Keel and you make it through maybe a mid-morning snack or even make it through lunch because you're satiated and that plays a big part of it as well. The other thing that tends to happen with anxiety is people are eating and consuming things that worsening xiety, they don't realize it. One big trap is artificial sweeteners that people don't realize even ones that are more natural. Unfortunately drivings idea.
That's what the research has shown. They disrupt the gut they really don't do good things to our bodies, but often someone is saying to me, you know, I want to come off diets. Want to come off. So does I'm drinking the diet soda and I'm having that in the morning or I'm, you know, the other one is caffeine, there's nothing wrong with consuming coffee, but caffeine is not for everyone. So they drink a little bit of coffee. They heart is racing their pulses racing, they feeling extremely anxious, it's not for them and that's where we need to tap into bed.
Body intelligence.
Yeah. Also the whole caffeine on an empty stomach. Yeah, I think is can be problematic. And I'm guilty of, in the past share ever. I used to drink black coffee on an empty stomach. Yeah. And and, and, and I've shared that, but I think that when you're able to add a little bit of fat to it to just blunt or or slow the infusion of caffeine, I think that that will do a lot better for people that are prone to Jitters.
The other thing to remember in the morning is that some people haven't had enough
Water to drink. And when they dehydrated that precipitate, I've seen a precipitate panic and I've seen people wake up really anxious. So went with anxiety and individuals who are struggling with that asked him to drink a glass of water in the morning. So they go through some sort of practice, which I try to help them develop, if they don't have one so that they don't jump out of bed with their heart racing and that feeling of dread, which often someone only with anxiety will talk about and that they have more of a pattern.
To easing themselves into the day, but part of that is water because dehydration can also make them feel super anxious and add to that not the best diet. It can be a, can be disastrous for anxiety.
Wow, electrolyte the depletion as well correct.
Electrolyte, depletion dehydration, maybe they've had a glass of wine the night before. Maybe they've had, you know, one too many cocktails, the evening before and they're almost their body suffering from an imbalance.
Oz of electrolytes but because of the alcohol they feeling a little bit more jittery and you know hydrating eating appropriate foods can help to find that up a little bit
too fascinating. So and then the on the, on the other side of the carbohydrate spectrum because I feel like it's important to mention. People will usually interpret that high glycemic, high glycemic load, refined sources of carbohydrates are no bueno, they
Some people I think will interpret that as like that low carb is like the best way to go but is it also the case that to eating too? Few carbohydrates, can drive anxiety?
I've seen that happen. Clinically and what tends to happen is that those individuals might fall into theirs, as you know, Max has sort of Neuroscience around lower lower carbohydrate diets are certain conditions and mental health, in a few case, studies out,
Out there which have proven to be potentially useful. I think the science is following the researchers following. But I think what we don't want to do is that eat This, Not That mentality and what I mean is let's give up carbs completely and eat. So few that there's very little in our bodies and this is where the nuances and nutritional Psychiatry important because it consider myself and took me a while to get there because I had to see enough of this clinically to be diagnostic. So, if you on a keto diet, I'm going
Hope you understand the things that are going to help you anxiety and the foods that will help you and the, the mm that maybe you should be eating a little bit of carbs here and there. But the right ones you know, they're carbides and vegetables. Yeah, think about that. You know, so there are ways to still do that a healthy way rather than just leave them out. Because you're right, when when our bodies are not satiated, that's one of the reasons, we also feel anxious and people who go to these extremes can sometimes present with those
conditions. Yeah. It's, I mean,
It just it all comes back to the idea that there's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all died. You might be on a kiddie genic diet to be treating certain neurologic conditions. Say she has epilepsy epilepsy exactly. But, but on the, the, the other side of the equation is that, you know what, I think an interesting and ultimately important way to think about very low carbohydrate diets, ketogenic diets is that they are essentially starvation memetics, you know, you're driving your body into a starvation state.
To the point at which it will create ketones right while still being able to eat. So, it's a mimetic for this this starvation state, which is ultimately stress on the body, like, your the buying doesn't like to be in a starvation state. It is yes. And so if you're doing that and then you're compounding other stress, right? Like from work or throwing fasting, into the mix or vigorous exercise like that can, it's just like stress compounding and compounding and
compounding none of your right amount.
That. And I also feel like, you know, individuals who follow ketogenic diet will actually will will very often share, you know, you do it in this way and this is how to be healthy on the diet. You don't do it. If you're not tolerating, you don't do it. If you feel sick and unhealthy and they will tweak things, you know, in order to sustain that over time, I'm not entirely sure yet. That it's should be a lifelong diet. I think people could do it for periods of time and
Laughing, because our bodies are so unique. And especially our microbiome is so unique. The reading should be switching it up. So, I, I think that that type of restriction can feel unhealthy. And I've seen people almost get sick Beyond just the people, you know, talk about key tofu and things like that, it's built that they actually just don't feel well. And more than one individual has come back. And said, I started eating brought back carbohydrates, but I followed healthy carbohydrates and that felt better.
I love that. You mentioned actually a few times a healthy quote, unquote, healthy whole grains. What do I mean? In the modern world modern Supermarket? Like what does that even? What does that even look? Like, it's
a good. That's a good one. I think it comes a little bit from my, my, my culinary life. You know. I like screens like spelt. I like things like Pharaoh Bali. You know Bali is higher glycemic but you can use a little bit of barley in like a mushroom soup and make it really yummy and Hearty and and more.
Shading for you, I like amaranth. You know. So I think we just need to expand a little bit out of what people, you know, tend to think of this as rolled oats. So, you know, steel, cut oats because there are also some glycemic issues with those. And I do understand from, from what I read and the research that they can, they can produce, you know, eating them in, moderation is as fine, but maybe not have that. Be your everyday food.
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And get tested your future self will. Thank you. I eat a very I would say low grain diet, but not necessarily a very low carbohydrate diet. I, lots of tubers are those? I mean, if you're eating lots of tubers vegetables, whole
fruits, that's great. That's great, you know, I so so max you and not, you know, an individual that has a struggle with. I would think that you're struggling with metabolic health. So, it was someone who's coming to my practice and struggling with some some
Psychological issues but also some weight issues. I wouldn't necessarily say tubers first, I would probably start them off with, you know, software often rich veggies which are going to be Rogue low-calorie. They can flavor up with spices, but they can be filling for them along with healthy proteins and fat. So, a balanced diet, you know, you're healthy. You're active. It's very different from someone who may be struggling with other issues. So tube is a completely fine with some, in my practice. I wouldn't necessarily go to white potatoes, sweet potatoes.
It was a tube is first, but I might bring and introduce those later on.
Why not stop them? Because they would seem too healthy for somebody who hasn't cultivated that
palette or no? Because I think that the glycemic index would be much would be slightly higher than starting them on. Say, cauliflower cabbage brussel sprouts, which would they could eat good servings of meat. Fibers means more fibrous, lower-calorie petitioning to someone, who is used to eating slightly less healthy diet, and my far fewer.
Tables. And then absolutely work them in or have them less often during the week. Yeah, but, you know, some as a patient once told me, vegetarian, diet doctor and I do is pizza and Coke. So you got to be specific with me, always remember? Yeah, so
pot Oreos are
plant-based. If it's a,
what are so what are some of your favorite fibers veggies?
I love the surf yourself, your friend Rich veggies, so I love the cruciferous of the cauliflower. The Brussels sprouts, the cabbage.
Just because you can flavor them up and they lend themselves to so many different spices and interesting dishes that you can make, you know, you can. And I love things like zucchini. And summer squash, I love tomatoes, the rich in lycopene, you know, they just an easy, that's an easy win. So those are those are some of the things I lean into and I actually love leafy greens. I get a lot of eye rolls in my practice for this. But you know, leafy greens are rich in folate.
Late and low folate is associated with low mood. These studies are actually, you know, far longer far older than when the gut microbiome science came through. So these are things we can do to me, there's these, I call them nutritional Psychiatry no-brainers. It's like no brain in eat your leafy greens because it's just going to build up the folate levels in your body.
Wow. Talk about. Why, what is it better to? I mean, somebody listening to those might run out and get, go get a folic acid supplement, which is
Synthetic folate, right? Is it better to? Is it better to reach for
food?
I always feel food first, and the reason I feel that is we are two things. We know that we don't live in a perfect world. So supplementation is definitely necessary but we can't out supplement a bad diet so you can in an appropriate situation, maybe you're deficient doctors done, some blood tests, maybe you need that for example, pregnant women, you know across the United States will need a folate or folic acid supplement. But if you just the average person trying to up your game in,
Of how you eating why not have you know, whether it's whether it's spinach or arugula kill anything that's green. The Greener, the better. You know, challenge yourself. If you have a farmers market try Watercress, try the dandelion green just be experimental with it and make it fun because it's easy easy to do much easier than a powder. You add to something, maybe you need to do that when you're traveling or for part of what you do, but there are ways you can get this from food. So I'm a food first person.
But there's certain nuances like certain spices, you do need to maybe take a supplement like saffron and you might need to supplement something. Like if you live in the Northeast, many individuals may be low on vitamin D because of the level of sunshine, we experience. So, you know, test on. Yes,
that test don't guess. Yeah, I love that. What are some other ways that fibers veggies and in particular? Dark leafy, greens benefit the brain. Like how? I mean you mentioned folate, which is, which is great. How
Do they, do they benefit the kitchen, Prebiotic fiber. And one of the reasons that that helps is through that, got brain Connection by providing the gut microbes, with Prebiotic fiber. They are nurturing the gut microbes, and, and then the Big Town products that are formed of the healthier products like short-chain fatty acids, which we need to really help with that cycle of better, brain health, when we are leaning towards a, you know, processed ultra-processed
Best Foods junk foods, and highly sugared Foods, most people think of those because they understand that number on the scale will go up, the waistline, will be an issue. But that's we have to sort of have to walk ourselves back from that. Because what's also happening is we just read a magin, our gut, we feeding the bad microbes in the gut. And those breakdown products are toxic the toxic breakdown products damage that single cell lining in the gut and ultimately lead lead.
The things like leaky gut, which could I've seen in my practice show up as mental health issues sometimes new, they also can show up the skin conditions and joint pains and so many other things because the gut microbes and the functions that they that they really engage in a so related to the rest of our body. Because even though medicine in the United States is all specialty based. I think we slowly starting to understand through lifestyle medicine
Functional medicine and nutritional Psychiatry that, you know, it's all connected. So we the specialty is need to be speaking but the gut microbiome is just sort of like the connected to all these other systems in the body. So we need to have a better sense of things.
Have a good cop, microbes are connected to every
system everything including in the months, right? Like they are
microbial, like the which I love to talk about. Yeah. They're just like waiting. Like, like they're looking at, like medicine, like, Western medicine. Like, we're waiting for you to catch up.
We're already influencing the brain, the joints, the skin, all these other organ systems who'da thought, 30 years ago,
right, who would have thought. And it sort of, I love the fact that, you know, the signs are on the, the microbiome is, is going to open up new options in mental health. Like I care deeply about the greater mission in mental health. And using what I love about nutritional Psychiatry Max's, you know, if you ever seen people who are watching for the Food Network and they don't know how to cook it,
not even have a pot or pan and their kitchen, you know, food is just an easy conversation, starter to a much deeper conversation around their mental well-being, which is difficult for a lot of people, you know. So I think it's a way to get that conversation going and then to use that as a mechanism to help people.
I agree. Couldn't agree more. Okay, we've talked about about the produce, we've covered the produce section herbs and spices. You mentioned is our low calorie, low sodium way of boosting the flavor of your food.
Single ingredients into food, what are some of your favorite
spices? So some of my favorite spices that you made with a pinch of black pepper and we now know that you know the paprika and black pepper, activates the curcumin to make it 20 times more bioavailable to the body and brain so easy hack and if you don't cook adding it to T is super smoothie is just easy to start using it a quarter teaspoon, add a pinch of black pepper and start going from there. You can also make marinate. You know, you can add it to veggies with
The spices Chili Peppers. You know, have capsaicin. Capsaicin helps with energy. So so this is a good one to add in it, adds spice, if that's something you enjoy. There are also things like parsley, mint, Mexican oregano, which have luteolin and those have been shown in research to help brain fog. So there's all these little things that you can almost have your spice cabinet can be part of your armor for your mental well-being. And we
Some kind of overlooked that and, you know, we tend to go to the sugar canister, which, which is difficult in our kitchens, but, you know, we should be thinking about these other options.
Absolutely. And yeah, I think knowing how to wield a spice and an herb in the kitchen. So important
and, you know, his he isn't something that's easy. If you can get the fish up. So you have a farmers market and you can get the cilantro in the mint and the parsley in all of these just you know few and in the winter if you don't have access just use much less of the dried spice because
Cuz it's super concentrated. When it's an organic dried spice, and you just need much less of it. So that's an easy thing to do. But when you have the, you know what, I buy fresh herbs, I add them to my salads. I add them, chop them up and add them everywhere. It's just about being a little bit Innovative around, making your food more interesting because I'm a firm believer in. You've written a wonderful new cookbook, you know, I'm a family. We don't have to eat healthy in a way that makes it taste like cardboard. You know, we should be delicious.
So
slowly and it and we can, we can just we can do it that way. That's
one of the silliest misconceptions of there, is in my opinion that eating healthy has to taste bad or Bland it absolute. I mean, the foods that I eat that I make are so full of flavor, they're so bold and I, that that is one of the reasons why I decided to write. My cookbook is to prove that to people genius kitchen is packed with. I mean, the flavor, the flavors of each, of the dish of each of the dishes, really bold? Really, like internationally influenced. And
Yeah, that's not bad.
Yeah, I'm waiting to try some of those
recipes. I know we'll get you some guys quick. Pause a couple years ago. I became aware of a compound called Euro within a, a metabolites produced by certain species of gut bacteria. When we consume pomegranate, now, you're living. A has been the subject of rigorous. Research showing benefits to everything from longevity. In the round worm to improvements in health span, a bolstering of muscle strength, endurance, and even a neuroprotective effect. The issue though.
As I mentioned is that you're a, listen, a is produced only by certain species of gut bacteria leaving a lot to chance. They've shown that there is wide variation, in individual ability to produce this powerful metabolite after consumption of pomegranate. That's why I'm so excited about a new company called timeline nutrition, which is the first company to make a standardized purified, version of your own with, and a, which they call my toe, pure, it's
Been shown in clinical research that 500 mg of Euro within a alone. Can significantly increase muscle strength and endurance with no other change in lifestyle. And again, my go-to for Euro with an a is my taupe, you're from timeline nutrition, timeline is offering 10% off of your first. Order of my taupe your, which again is your listen. A and all you got to do is go to timeline nutrition.com Max and use code Max to get 10% off of your order again, that is timeline nutrition. T, IM e, l INE nutrition Dot,
Mom / Max, I recommend trying their starter pack with all three formats. They have a soft gel. They have a berry powder, mix and they have a protein powder. I've been doing a full gram a day of my taupe. Your AKA your listen a and I will regularly report back to you to let you know how I'm doing on it, but needless to say, the research is there, highly recommend checking it out again, timeline, nutrition.com Max. And now back to my conversation, you mentioned saffron. That's a really
Spence of spice and it's now being sold as a
supplement. So, sad front is a good, it is expensive and you use very little a little when you cook with. So one of the things about sap runs, one of the few places I do say to people, it's an opportunity. If you're really struggling with your mood, saffron has a really good body of evidence around improving mood. Well, and in the studies, they used saffron supplements, so they obviously were able to use a much higher dose than you would in a country in the counter.
Sense. So that's an opportunity for someone who say having a conversation with their doctor and many doctors, don't study nutrition. So this is an opportunity to go in with some data and say to them you know, I'm struggling with my mood. Would you be open to us finding the right supplement to try to try out? And you know, part of it is bringing forth the information but it's an opportunity there to try something different along with things that we know have helped would like a mega Three fatty.
Acids, which can also be a supplement if needed in, you know, it with low mood States and even anxiety.
Do you recommend Omega-3
supplements in certain situations? I do. It mostly depends. Sometimes people prefer to take a supplement because they will take a supplement but they don't consume particular seafood or they've had, you know, they've been worried about something they've seen on television. That makes them not want to eat the seafood, but they want the benefit of the manga 3.
A good example of when I might recommend it, mostly I'll still try to work with people around, you know, good servings of seafood and things like that. But once in a while. Yeah, supplements are
fine. Let's talk about see seafood. Seafood comes up again and again in conversations about about nutrition for cognitive Health Nutrition for mental health. What kinds of seafood do you do you
recommend? So I like the omega-3 Rich Seafood. So, you know, wild sockeye salmon anchovies sardines which are
Much more much less expensive ways of obtaining some omega threes. I like to recommend things like even this is where cost comes into it because canned, canned, salmon can't muscles. Can oysters actually rich in zinc, great for your brain. Great Brain food. So just having those include in your diet in the way that you think make sense for you and your families is a good way to go.
I have canned.
Mussels and oysters in my kitchen. Yeah, yeah. I love
them. Yeah. And it's a great on the it's a great travel snack, it's a great on the go snack for work. If you're busy working in a working from home and count rustle up an entire huge lunch, it's a healthy brain snack. So I like that. You do that because what people should should try.
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, you just got to make sure that you're getting it packed in like a healthy oil, like extra virgin olive oil,
ideally and read the envied the the type of oil.
The back, even if it's labeled extraversion because sometimes they sneak in some other healthy oils depending on the brand and sometimes packed in water is fine too.
Yeah. Packed in water. I do, you know, I'm, I am aware of the fact that eating fish out of a can, you're probably, who knows, like what endocrine disrupting compounds. You're exposing yourself to, you know, from the cans inner lining, which is, I mean, that's the thing to unfortunately, but, but I do think that the benefits outweigh the risks,
the benefit the brain benefits outweigh the risks and I,
The best we can do in this conversation around fish. No fish meat. No, you know, meat or no me there, you know, the eggs are no eggs without falling into. You can only eat this die to be healthy for your brain and for your body. I think it's about finding the right plan for the person and finding the best that you can, that you have available, that's affordable to you and your family. So if you consume meat, you know, consider regenerative farming, not
Everyone can do that, not everyone has access but consider that it's a way to to try to do that with some health benefits and and not getting into the Trap of you know all me to all dairy or eggs are a bad because I think that's what people struggle with the most is. Which way do I go? And I think we have to I feel in mental health, deep-seated responsibility around providing people with more options than less because
Frankly, no one wants to feel restricted and feel like they have to give up more and more on their life. The more almost a buffet of options. You have the better.
Yeah, I agree. That's why I've worked so hard to dispel some of the the health myths surrounding animal-based products. It's not that my diet is exclusively meet. I'm not a carnivore Dieter now, but I think that the harm that comes from the fear mongering that you sometimes see from even the highest echelons of the nutritional and medical Orthodoxy and especially online with very loud.
Loud voices, even voices from highly credentialed people fear mongering animal products. I'm like, that's not doing anybody any good,
I agree with that. And if my clients talk to me about this all the time, because they struggle with should I shouldn't, I is it? Okay? I bought I bought this for my family and I think the fear mongering is something that we need to really address head-on because individuals who are already having to
That extra step struggling with their mental health, not feeling good thinking. Well, how can I find more solutions New York Times had an article earlier this year? How, despite Telehealth be short of therapist so access in many parts of the country? Remains a very big issue. You know, even in big cities where we have mental health resources. People still waiting months for an appointment, to see a doctor or even a therapist. So the more we can now that we know there is this connection between food and
mental health, the more we can help people even to make some changes while they're waiting to see a doctor becomes important and the less we confuse them. So if we keep saying you can never eat that, it's going to kill you. And and if it doesn't help, it makes people more fearful. And then, you know, to them a packaged food is safer then than a real food. I've had, I've had people say that
to me. Wow. I know some people that are or I've heard of
People that get that, you know, because in the Fitness World, you see, pretty pretty often calories are all that matter. Or if you don't see, calories, are all that matter. You just see this heavily weighted bias, towards calories, being the primary needle, mover, and macros, and all that. And so that's actually I'm aware of some people that have interpreted that or they've found that the easiest way to track calories to eat only packaged Foods. Yeah.
Because packaged foods have the calories laid out on them, the macros. And
I've had people, I've had people say that to me, and and then I have to, then we have to do this little bit around. You know, educating you sharing a little bit of Education around food labels. And the fact that there are and this has been documented upwards of 250 names, other names for sugar on food labels, just take that, for example, it's horrendous. I mean, it's so so the people don't realize
Might think that seeing a healthy product and for the most part, some of them are trying specially than your products are definitely trying to make, you know, products. But you may not realize that five items on that ingredient list of sugar. They just turn on the name like brown rice syrup as a good one.
Yeah. And highly refined grains are no different than sugar. Even if there's even if there is no sugar in it but
it's they convert and
sugar in the body or maltodextrin is another one of those. It's technically not a sugar. Yeah, but it's basically sugar.
Are correct. So, all some of it is how it breaks down the using a different name that people don't recognize. But then the impact on your actual body and your gut. So we have to take all of that into account when you make those choices. So even, you know, the process and ultra-processed Foods. We've got to be careful. We can't avoid them. We probably know, it's not very hard to live a life and avoid that, especially in the United States. But I think making a conscious Choice comes into that as with all the
other food,
Yeah. Couldn't agree more when it comes to cooking. What are some of your favorite oils and fats to use? That's a big that's a big
topic. It is a big topic all the time. You know realized that my favorites extra virgin olive oil for lower temperature cooking or salad dressings and I like avocado oil which is neutral and safer at a slightly higher temperatures of them roasting veggies or putting something in the oven I might use those. I don't mind a little bit of coconut oil for
Certain things, I like coconut milk and then a little bit of butter or ghee, which traditionally we use in, in, in cooking, but not a ton of it, you know, and not not. It's also the method that you use in the cooking, right? You can use a little bit of those fats but I'm not going to deep fry in these. I'm going to use things like an airfryer oven, you know get a use those quick. Those quick newer ways to cook food guest the crispiness without the deep-frying factor.
So those are some of the ones I use
is key because I used to use ghee, probably more frequently and I used to use butter or certainly a lot more frequently, but I became sort of aware. I guess you could say that butter has its chemical composition is different from other Dairy fats, due to the disruption of the milk. Fat globule membrane, which is essentially, it's essentially A lipoprotein in milk. It's like, you know, like
Like people think of lipoproteins that we have in our own bodies like LDL which is a lipoprotein. Chylomicrons, labored breathing, milk contains these lipo proteins that bind the triglycerides and dairy and and it's thought it's been proposed. That this is one of the reasons why you see people who eat full-fat dairy, their cardiovascular health is better, their metabolic health is better. But but but ER, I think, has a different way in which it affects the body because
That membrane has been disrupted and so I've sort of cut back a little bit on on butter and then ghee, which is obviously a butter derivative like it's just made from butter ghee. I was noticing some research that shows that the the like the cholesterol and I don't know how this would play out in terms of like actual outcomes. So maybe this is meaningless but like the the cholesterol in ghee is tends to be highly oxidized due to the
heat. It could it could well be because you actually, you can make
you go, you can make it home by just basically cooking off the fat. And, and that's, that's why the other name for ghee, is clarified butter. And when you look at, it actually ends up being, unless, when you remove it at the right temperature and ends up being clear. Even since my book, you know, there's been new assigns around saturated fats and whether we consume, you know, steak and whether we what types of read, we read meat, we consumers, very seminal.
Book written, only 20, 20, 20, and the journal American Cardiology Association. I think it was, but it was pretty clear that, you know, we need to be rethinking and expanding our understanding of saturated fats, lipoproteins LDL HDL, and that really has informed my thinking. Moving forward to be to be more inclusive of different types of say, meat products, animal products and whether it's a little bit of butter, some geeky and
That's not. So little bit is is one way to handle it and to understand and explain to individuals that there's new evidence that we have that we want to look at. And so it's less about all-knowing and more about this is what we know now. And so, you know, I've started to say to my patients. It's okay to have the steak when you want to just think about the quality. I've always said think about the quality, but now it's sort of you don't only have to lean on lean meats,
I love
I love that you as a physician were looked at this new research and and have evolved your own perspective on. Yeah, it's
amazing. I think, I think I misspoke on the gel. I want to say it was the Journal of Macon. Anyway, I'll send that you will find it.
Yeah, I have, I have the article. It's in me. Nobody's doubting your, you know, your credibility here, super interesting know, I feel I feel the same the same way and and I eat
Saturated fat in my diet. I'm a big, you know, consumer of animal products and the like, so so yeah, I love that. I mean, it just, it just goes to show you that you tend to see the most dogmatic voices online. Yeah, but science is not dogmatic,
right it correct. Its science not to dogmatic and the other thing that that that evolved Max and I would suggest subject to that with some my book was released during covid and what happened during covid has many voices
Of all different, kinds moved, sort of rows on social media. And one of the things that I found and I've got this from direct feedback from people, I work with my patients, is that it got more confusing and I even had it was at a conference recently and someone walked up to me and quoted, you know really well, well, credentialed researcher and came to me very scared because she felt that she should give up a certain Food Group.
Poop. And I was trying to explain without without being offensive to whom she was referring to and she follows this physician and this group that, you know, you can you can eat certain amounts of this, you can balance it up, you don't have to sheep. She actually came to me, looking fearful, I do, I have to give up because from what you're saying you can eat a balanced and you can eat a little bit of this and you can pay attention to the quality. And I said, all of that is true and it's really up to you to
Side where you feel the science works for you. Because I can tell you that I think it should be a balance and you can eat some of this but if you're feeling following this group tells you to completely exclude something I can't. I can't decide that
for, you know, but that's dogma and that's it. And there's very likely a bias there. That's not being disclosed, that that celebrity physician or whatever is probably an
An activist
could be an activist or sometimes activist organizations are funding their platform, right? So there's a lot of nuances that are not visible to the public and I think when you're in this world and doing this work, as we do you get to note. Oh yeah get to hear about it. No
but it's very clear. It's very clear. I think one of the things that has happened over the past two years has been harm has been done to
Realism, and I think social media has only Amplified the harm that it's done. And I think that's actually a good thing that the fact that I mean, people are now skeptical. They have a healthy degree of skepticism that maybe they hadn't it had before for people with credentials after their name. Right. I think, I think that's important. I don't, I mean, the best doctors that I know are totally comfortable saying, I don't know, this isn't my area of expertise, they're always willing to have a conversation.
Ian, the worst doctors I've ever encountered will say stuff like well don't confuse your Google search with my 7 years of medical products. I think there's we need both right? When you both, we need to be able to have a conversation, but to, but to just blindly follow somebody because of their great. I think that the days of that sort of Blind Faith are
over. I agree. And I'm seeing that as well. And I also feel that I want my patients, my colleagues who have I'm having the conversation with, to
Informed so I'm never offended if someone says I saw the study in fact I appreciate it. I'm like oh show it to me, you know, pull it up on your phone. Let's let's see what it shows and let me help interpret for you and I need time, I'll read it and I'll get back to you because I think that the more informed the consumer can be an especially in this sort of nutrition space where I'm trying to impact their mental health is key because there's so many strong opinions about inclusion and exclusion and people just
got to go down the wrong path and I see it impacting their mental health. So open to the conversation, always being willing to say I'm not sure you know I have to look it up. I do this at presentations someone will ask a question and especially now we've gone back to live audiences which is fun. They don't save you, I don't have that right now but this is my email or this is my team's email and get back. We will get back to you with an answer because you don't always know
Especially nutrition sciences. That, you know, we talked about omega-3, fatty acids is a major publication in December of last year from the colleagues of mine at the hospital that looked at depression in older population and felt show that omega-3 is for not helpful and I actually quoted that in a lecture they gave recently, I said, look, here's the thing clinically. I've seen this help more people than not, not uniformly, but more people than
Not do I disagree with my colleagues and they research, absolutely not. They have really upstanding study that they've done. But here's the point about nutritional science. When you any day that I say, Max, you can eat these three things I can promise you. Someone on the internet, someone on social media, can quote three studies against that. But it's how the studies are nuanced. It's the science behind them. It's what matters to your body? What? May agree or not agree with you. It's on those things. So weak
Cannot be dogmatic about this anymore. We've got to be inclusive of opinion and careful about the recommendations.
Yeah, I mean, I would after seeing a reading a conclusion like that. Omega-3s don't work for older adults. I would ask questions. Like, well, what else are they eating? Are they eating a diet? That's very high in omega-6. Dominant seed oils or perhaps, not. You know, if they're not, then maybe that the Omega-3s wouldn't have been as important. Are they, are, they are they eating fish regularly, right? Where was this study done? Was it done in Norway?
Where everybody's eating fish all the time and the fish oils and that day. Yeah, then the fish was not gonna have any effect, right? Where did they take Urban impart, an urban and impoverished Community the United States on a standard American diet because I would be really interested to see like what fish oil would do in that
population. Those are great questions in a moment. I will definitely actually send it to you and, you know, I think the the point being that, it's those nuances. You have to look at before you uniformly. Take that study or a patient shows it to you.
Colleague shows a to in in discussion and says, oh, how come you recommending this, this is not good, according to such a study, it's those nuances that matter. It's interpreting it and then finding what the solution is for that person. You know, the next person coming into your office, may not do well on a mega three, but you don't know that until you try and that's why the the integration for me as well as the research and the clinical aspect becomes important.
I agree. So somebody, somebody listening to this, who's struggling with
Anxiety, depression, brain fog, they they're super inspired by your work as they should be. What's the first step that they should take in their lives? What, what should they start doing right
away? So an easy thing to do, if you want to start adding adding do something different to your food. And this is super simple, is lean into a plant Rich diet, because the fiber, the Prebiotic fiber, the even the fermented foods that you can use
From vegetables and things like miso, paste, or kimchi, all that. Any one of those things can, in fact, impact your gut help and you got health is now so Central to the balance of your mental health. So I always say happy gut is a happy mood just to convey that idea, plus satiating will give you multiple nutrients that you need. Another simple thing and I like people to choose from these start leaning into that spice. Cabinet start cooking with more spices.
That are flavorful but also are going to have these brain benefits. And I list them all and this is your brain on food. Another one is to start to enhance, you know, start to enhance things like your hydration and other aspects of some, some of my recommendations are straight on the food. But I also want people to think about it as a lifestyle change because nutrition is the number one lifestyle factor that we can change for most of the diseases in the world right now.
And so more than ever, the power that we have is that the end of our Fork before we see our doctors before we have that conversation, we can make those changes. So adding spices and plant which diet choosing the right types of fats. Omega-3 is being one of them, lowering the mega 6, boils processed vegetable oils, are we using? So it's a combination of what you want to include and then being careful of the things you want to cut back on and those are just some easy ways to stuff.
Don't forget to hydrate enough, right? Because low hydration. You can seem anxious and hydration is super important mindfulness. You know, Forest bathing all of this becomes important to mental health. So
yeah, it's all important. It's not just that diets. The only thing that matters, but it's like, it's we have, it's an area where we have
control, we have control, you may live in a vague in a part of the world, which has less Sunshine. So you know, spending habit, wasn't may not be that easy but, you know, we only and so we did several times a day and these
Is a they just better choices. We can make there isn't no one is perfect but we can we can do a little bit better than includes me. I
guess walk me through like a day of eating for you like what does a day of eating look like for you for in terms of optimizing your mental
health?
So I like to drink water in the morning. I find it to be a good habit and I think that many of us don't hydrate enough because we don't realize it and so that becomes important. I also like to engage in food prep. So meal prep is a big part of how I get by my busy lifestyle and I tend to meal prep breakfast because one of my favorites is chia pudding or something that I can do ahead of time for people who consume eggs have a recipe in chapter 11 for mini frittatas.
Which are make with tons of veggies in a cupcake pan so you can actually freeze those. So as long as I know, I have things prep for breakfast, I know I have something to eat in the morning because I'm usually rushing off somewhere. Even if it's to zoom, I always have healthy snacks on hand pre-packed even by size for during the day. So I do have fresh berries and I, you know, maybe a quarter cup of some blueberries and I have nuts that I like brain healthy foods. But again portion,
In control he is not so many the so much the calories as the portion control, right? Because even with healthy foods, you want to have like a quarter cup of nuts. Then lunch is always almost always a very big salad. That's both filling and satiating. Lots of leafy greens, usually make a batch of some, my favorite vinaigrette for that week. So homemade vinaigrette no sodium, no added sodium or sugar great flavors. And then as many veggies
Cheese and adding to the biodiversity of my meal, just by adding in colors, flavors textures, beans legumes, and additional proteins of my choice, makes it easy and I can even pre-prep the proteins. So, you know, you can do that ahead, you can add your baked chicken. You can add big salmon to your so you can add roasted chickpeas, whatever works for you or tofu snack in the afternoon, often green tea. Because I have coffee, I love coffee, but I have it.
Early in the day and my limit is about two cups. Then in the afternoon, I might have green tea and just it I find that it gives me that energy boost without the uncomfortable buzz from caffeine if I've gone over two cups and then dinner is my canvas by sort of my play time because I love to cook. So I might take a might have cauliflower steaks prepped and I might flavor them up with my homemade chicken, tikka masala.
Le adding in, you know, a nice probiotic, Rich yogurt, as the marinade, lots of veggies on the side. However, I sort of put together different things but what I do on my meal prepped is I have things prep so that I have choices to choose to pull from and that I don't have to start everything from scratch. And little tips like my frozen veggies which in this country are flash frozen. So easy to use easy to cook. If you can't be preparing the cauliflower broccoli from
For example,
love that I gotta get your chick. Your is it a chicken tikka, masala myself. Oh my
God, but on cauliflower chicken with it.
Oh my God, that's like one of my favorite dishes in Indian restaurants.
I'm happy to shit.
Amazing. I love that? Well, you're a gift. You're so, I mean, this is like such a great conversation. Yeah, sure, my audience is were grateful. I just have one last question for you. People should definitely go and pick up your book. This is your brain on food. Where can people buy it? And also, working to connect with you on social
media. Thanks Max.
So come to my website and subscribe to my newsletter, where you get every update that we do every week, so that's whom and I do em d.com will also find links to my book and social media there, and on social media. We are at Dr. Um, a naid 00 across platforms, and we really use social media to be a hopefully balanced and educational voice out there.
Love it, love it. I think it is. Last question that gets asked everybody on the show. What does it mean to?
To live a genius. Life was living a genius, life
meet you.
so to me that that connects to I think living your Genius life is being your true self and connecting to the Joy because if you are living
In accordance and sort of honoring something within yourself. And when I have those moments in my life, I mean immediately joyful. So to me it's really about the joy at the end at the end of the day,
amazing doctor. And I do thank you so much for being here. This is a
blast thanks Mac. That so much fun. Such great questions and such a great
chat. Oh my God, amazing. Thank you guys, for tuning in. I will catch you on the next episode. Peace, everybody.
