This is the grounded podcast. Episode. Number one, with Dean Lister and me Jocko will ink. Why do I need another podcast? This is a good question you. And I've been talking about doing a podcast for a while. I've talked about doing other little marginalized or smaller podcast, things part of this is because of the expectations and the standards of the dhokla podcast. The, the
Nerds of the Jocko podcast are.
Or hi. I will say, I don't know what. Now. I'm no better way to put it. You know, I'm talking about some very specific things. It Strays off occasionally, but I'm talking about human nature. I'm talking about leadership. I'm talking about leadership and human nature, through the lens of war, and through the lens of atrocities and through the lens of human struggle.
And I will always be talking about those and I will always be interested in those things. But those things are not my only interest in the world. So other interests that I have are really varied from, I mean, obviously at the top of the list is Jiu-Jitsu. I've been interested in that for a long time, all kinds of fighting surfing music.
You know, nature shooting just getting into, archery. This, all kinds of different things. And I meet all kinds of people in all these different Arenas. All the time. I learned a lot from them just from talking to them just from talking to other people. And I was saying to you earlier, that you and I will sit there and talk on the mat. We get done training. We're sitting there talking for 20 minutes. Sometimes it's a half an hour. Sometimes 45 minutes about things that I'm curious about that. I want to know about that. You have knowledge on
You're asking me a question about something that I have knowledge on and I've I look back at those things. And I think man, I wish I would have recorded those conversations because there's good knowledge there.
To learn. The other thing about this is I get that knowledge without reading anything without studying anything.
Without doing a massive amount of preparation, but just by talking and asking questions and listening. So I think other people's can can learn from that as well. And
I'm not going to do a bunch of preparation, like I do for Jocko podcast because I quite honestly do not have time. It's physically impossible to do that much preparation, but that doesn't mean that I should not try and get word out there and try and that doesn't mean that you and I don't still have conversations that transfer knowledge, you know, back and forth between us and it's the same thing with all these other things that I'm interested in so many ways. You and I were talking about
For 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes after we train yesterday.
What should we call it? What's a good name for this podcast? Yeah,
and we were throwing around a bunch of stuff. And then I forget who said
grounded. I think it was your idea so
grounded.
Is obvious tighter Jiu-Jitsu because Jiu-Jitsu is utilizing the ground as a tool, which is something. I know we'll talk about maybe not today. But when you start talking about how you use the ground as a weapon against your enemy, it's a pretty profound way to think, right? There's something that you and I are both standing on you're going to use it as a weapon against me and I don't know how to use it if I don't know that. So there's that there's also
Staying grounded, right? People talk about hey, that person state, which is basically a way of saying that a person is staying humble. Hey, that person is. Oh, that person staying grounded. You know, that person's grounded. It's like a positive thing to say, it means balance. It means base. It means you have Roots, right? That person is grounded. I mean, there's a foundation.
And also means that, you know, everything's connected, like when you say, oh, all the lessons in this book are grounded in, right? So, there's, there's also like a concept that everything is connected.
And that there's a thread that ties to all things. And as I say all the time, if you know, the way broadly, then you see it in all things.
And the things that we things that we're definitely going to talk about. I mean, you always bring up examples of history of warfare of different generals and combat leaders and world leaders. You always talk about those people. You either tell me something, you ask me a question. So even the fact that the main subject of this podcast isn't the same as Jocko, podcast, would be a little bit lighter, but there's no doubt in my mind that there's connections and
That there is much to be explored and much to be learned and much to be talked about. So Dean Lester. What's happening, man? What number podcast were you on of Jocko
podcast 60-something 160. I think it might even 160 something.
So, Google Dean Lister Jocko podcast. If you don't know anything about Dean, you'll find out, Dean's past life or his current life, but his past. What
achievements? If you think? Yeah. In the field of
Mixed martial arts of Jiu-Jitsu of fighting of instructing.
I too have wrestling of Samba.
A lot of lot of things going on there and of being a mutant, it'll be a comedian. So Jiu-Jitsu this is, this is sort of my definitely, as I've explained many times. This is the thing that ties a lot of threads together. And initially title lot of threads together for me, in my brain, as I, the more I understood you to, the more, I understood everything, in the world. Is that too. Bold of the statement. Is that too broad of a
statement. Like, it's the
truth.
It's the actual truth. I put things together because of because I started training Jiu-Jitsu because I trained you Jutsu, because you and I were training for 3-4 hours a day, trying to murder each other. It taught me about leadership and taught me about combat. It taught me about war talking about talking about everything. And so let's talk to Jutsu a little bit. Not everyone changed. Trains Jiu-Jitsu, should everyone train?
Jutsu.
You know, I thought about this hobo Joe Rogan talking about comedians. The only way to know if you could be a comedian is you just have to jump on the mic and try? Of course not, everyone is going to be a good comedian. But I think anyone could benefit from learning how to talk in front of other people. So yeah, I don't think everyone would continue to train Jiu Jitsu. But if everyone tried it, it would benefit them in some way. I think. So any kind of a risky or a
That's kind of can make you nervous or push your boundaries. I think it's going to be beneficial for that person in the long
run.
You know, that saying, when they talk about Jiu-Jitsu, like 100 people start, how many people make it to Bluebell? How many people make it to Purple belt and then by the time you get to Black Belt, what do you think is 1 and 100?
Maybe less maybe less than that. Awesome. Yeah, it's weird to
me that people cannot do Jujitsu anymore. Yeah, isn't that kind of weird to
you? Yeah, that is I think that some people get let's say of
Let's say 40, get the blue belt. A lot of those will be like, hey, I got my title. I've done something in Jujitsu, but the rest is gonna be a lot of hard work. I've got my belt. I'm out. So of those 40, you might get 15 that will stay. Maybe 25 acquit at Bluebell. It's interesting. So you have 15 left that are continuing past blue ball. Maybe it's 30 depends. Depends 15 30 pounds on the on the where you are in the world. What age group you are.
Your level interest of course, but you get you get to a level where I once someone gets past purple. Usually they're kind of thing with it now. And if they stay they keep doing what they've been doing. They can get the black. So the biggest filter would be white to blue and then blue to purple the two big filters in my opinion.
For me, I was just up with uh, I was doing some archery and I'm going hunting soon. And and one thing I was talking with John Dudley and he stumped about is that there's like a primal part of our brain that exists and for me, so like Jiu-Jitsu I completely feel it. It feels totally totally innate in my personality to want to engage in combat with another human.
I think that's pretty normal. Now. I when I said that made this statement, I said all men feel like a prayer and then Andy stump pointed out to me, that that's not necessarily true. And then there's some men that do not have that and if they were around three or four hundred years ago,
they would be
terminated right. They like, how could you survive right? Because because someone like you would come along and just take whatever they had and kill
them. Well, I would tell you that, huh, they served a purpose and I'm talking to Ivan.
I'm just joking. Yeah, okay, maybe a thousand years. No, it's true. Thousand years is true. I mean, I think that people have always found something to do, but the ones who got things done were in those days, the stronger now, it's there's so many ways to measure value. Things are just different now, but there's something inside inside the psyche. I think it's
true, right? And then, and I found the same thing because we were up at a 3D archery target challenge. So your 3D means you're shooting at like,
Like three-dimensional targets of animals and yet, you know, you're walking through the mountains and walking and for me, it started reminding me of being in the SEAL Teams and being on patrol, especially as a young seal. When we used to still do a lot of work, not necessarily in the desert, but in
the woods. And
and I was thinking that for me again, it seems like an innate part of my brain is when you're on patrol. Like okay, here, you're going to go.
Out in the woods and you're going to go catch dinner. That's what you're going to do. You're going to go hunt for dinner. And that seems to be a totally innate, like you can feel it firing. Oh, yeah. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. No matter what, no matter who you are on this planet, you have ancestors. That's what they did. They got Spears or rocks or bow and arrow and they want or guns, and they went out and they got dinner.
They hunted dinner. They went out sometimes and they fought the other.
Tribe,
like these. To me, seemed to be in eight parts of us. And that's one of the things that I think Jiu-Jitsu
satisfies. Well because a lot of those, those activities are being, I'm not saying they should all be encouraged because I'm not saying you should go out and want to want to kill other men specifically, but but that innate desire to do something like we're talking about. In the psyche. You can actually replace that with jiu-jitsu.
Yeah, and actually that's a really good point. Part of the innate thing is not just
Killing other men. Part of the innate thing is having other, you know, having a gang, having a tribe, having a band of people that you're not trying to kill but that you're actually on the team of and Hayward when you're out hunting with a couple other guys, it's like, yeah, we are working together to make this happen when you're on the Jujitsu matcher, you train you train together and there's there's bonds that are created through the hard training and that's, yeah. That's another part that people can you don't necessarily
Only have to have that in modern society, right? In modern society debt, don't necessarily have to
have people that you rely on
100% because if someone bothers you you can call the cops and you can kind of be you know, you know what I really do need to have a gang or a tribe that you are close with. But in Jiu-Jitsu you'll end up with that. Just the physical nature of it and the hard work nature of it like anytime you do.
Trying things with other humans. You start to get you start to develop a bond with them. That's what boot camp does. That's what, that's what Airborne training does. We're all going to get in this aircraft. We're all gonna jump out of it and we're going to form a team because we all have a shared a shared struggle. Same thing with two-a-days on a football team on the wrestling team, you know, like, oh we're going to train really hard this summer and we're going to form a bond.
Roger. Yeah, and so you and I have been training together for a long time, so,
Those are some good reasons to start Jiu-Jitsu. Now, I don't want to make Jiu-Jitsu sound like a knuckle, dragger. Yes sport because. And I notice this, especially with kids, the smart little kids,
they get good at Jiu Jitsu and they end up liking it immediately, because they immediately see our, they see the
power, but they see that. Hey, I'm small. But if I learn this knowledge, then I'll be able to beat people that are bigger than me.
It was have no choice, but
Learn the technique. Yeah. Yeah, if you're a strong kid or strong individual, you definitely want to learn the technique but you might be able to skirt by a little bit, just by being strong. So interesting, the the kid who is not born, strong has to find a way to do it better and therefore that's his only way to
grow. Because that is that why? Like, in wrestling the weight classes, the smaller weight classes are so filled with more kids and the heavier weight classes or is that just because like in high school, there's just
less heavy waves. There's just less heavyweight humans. There's also less
95-pound guys in high school. So using the 140 145 and high schools
packed. I noticed, like, with the seals, the guys, the guys that were just big dudes. They usually didn't gravitate towards Jiu-Jitsu because they already had the actuality of being able to smash people because they were big and then their own perception that they could smash people because they were big, right? Like hey, I would, um,
That I'll just smash you. Yeah. Yeah. The app is a little more I guess because you don't get the big guy. He might be a little more used to getting what he wants and talking like that. You also get the small guys that want to do it real bad to get some payback, the big guys. Okay. I don't
know. You used to be when we started training you, or
174. Yeah,
that's true. And you were a killer. You were a killer at 174. I'm thinking about that now, I mean, you are skinny.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it was 19 years old. Yeah, I used to cut to 173. So I probably was probably pushing 180 question. What are you probably skinny though. Anyways, yeah, but but dang, you were murder. People had a few good days. All right, so
Jiu-Jitsu why should what other benefits you get from
jiu-jitsu?
Well, it didn't self-defense. Aspect means incredible, you get functional strength. You actually get functionally strong. It doesn't do so much to increase muscle size, but it gets you functionally strong. I know, guys, I know men who are professional powerlifters. That in the weight room. Would just be kind of embarrassing if I was next to them. But but they can't move on the ground with me. Like, there's like stuck. Like, like a turtle and flip on its shell, I can't even move.
So there's a lot of functional application to the movements in Jiu-Jitsu. It engages your mind. It opens up a whole new side to your psyche that you see brand-new to yourself. That you didn't know was even there self-defense as I mentioned and you said this in a better way that the fact if you cannot physically hold me here and I can leave, that's a pretty solid beginning to learn martial arts. I can decide to leave or stay.
Well, I guess I could maybe choose to hold you here if I wanted to. That's that's a pretty good deciding factor to learn self-defense.
Yeah, that's a big point of contention with people that are what do you call people? That are all
into debating,
you know, different martial arts. Do they have a name? I don't know, but there's people. Well, like, the people that use the term, multiple attackers all the time. What if you up against multiple attackers?
It's, they got like those kind of those kind of statements, and that's what your wife. He has a knife. Will you do? Yeah, you know
what, the guy with a knife is going to sucking as anything. Yes. A problem. For anyone,
I try to clarify that in the disciplines, freedom field. Manuals, is when you learn Jujitsu as self-defense, you're not learning Jiu-Jitsu as self-defense so that you can go to the ground and finish someone. That's not why you're learning it. The initial reason for learning it is so you can get up off the ground protecting.
Yourself, if you go to the ground and then if and then you can get up off the ground and get away from somebody.
So yeah, it's clear super important. You look at the uoc, I'm using some classical examples, Chuck Liddell, of course, he's versed in submission, but he was hard to take down. He could take a punch and he can knock you out. So if you are, if it's very hard to take that person down and they can, they can hurt you on the feet. That's a problem already. And you have other people that will take you.
On and then proceed to mess up your day on the ground. So the idea of grappling is very important. Then you have Fighters like and is a Silva Nick Diaz, who, while, of course having wrestling themselves, they're experts on the ground was submission and their experts was striking. So we have to take down aspect which is Wrestling Judo Jujitsu. The ground aspect which is Judas who is humble submissions and the stand-up aspect boxing kickboxing. You need to have two of the three to be a competitive fighter.
At least two of the 32
would name the three again, the takedown game. So wrestling. Yes, / Judo
sure. It's not. Okay, ground gained ground fighting. So
who's submission Mission? So's Jiu-Jitsu sambo. Yeah, type thing. Okay. And then strike striking boxing Muay
Thai, there's many different types of data analysis, any types of ways to use a ground game. There's many types of waves. You should stand up game as their stuff abroad comparison. Yeah, stand up damage.
Distance the ability to take someone down or not be taken down in the ground and then the ability to fight, or get off the ground check. Yeah, you definitely need two of the three and
your other. Third needs to be. You need to have game. You can't just not have any game at all. Yeah, right. You can just be zero on that
aspect that you're lacking. You have to understand the third part. Of
course, and that's just a re-clarify. Well, the thing that we're what you said, I said it better than you.
But that part just going back to self-defense and will close the book on that one. And I'm sure we'll talk about it more in the future. But if Dean Lister is attacking me and I don't want to engage because I'm a normal human being. That is avoiding getting into a street fight. If you stand there and raise your hands and square off with me. I should just run away. And then you have to either have to be able to catch me or, you know, I delay the process, remember? Yeah, but
Minute that you grabbed hold of me. Now. I don't have a choice. Now. The running is not a choice. If you want to stand back and you want to kick me, even if you wanted to stab me with a knife, if you want to stab me with a knife. So you pull out a blade and you square off with me? Cool run, right? That's that's what I'm going to do is I'm going to run. Those are that that defense of running works for all the stand-up game? For all the if you pull out a baseball bat and you go, I'm going to beat you down. Okay, cool. I'm going to get away from you. Want to run away from you because you gotta we can baseball bat.
The only time that changes is when you grab ahold of me, or if we're in some kind of confined conditions. So, for in some kind of a confined condition. Well, then I can't run. So, then you are going to get close to me. And now, I'm now in both those cases. I need to learn how to Grapple. I
was saying, like, last time for sitting next to each other and movie theater. Like, it's gonna be a problem for you. Get away
from me
if we're an elevator is going to suck. Yeah. So yeah, these are specific. I don't know why I think losing crazy
things with. Well, that's a good point because if
This goes to say like my strikes to like if we're in a movie theater and you grab ahold of me, like it's dark and you just grab ahold of me. I didn't have an opportunity to try and strike you. And, you know, what, I've tried to strike, you thousands and thousands of times over the years. You know, I've tried to punch you kick. You, I've gotten through with some, but most of the time I end up in a clinch situation. You're putting me on my back. That's the reality of it. So if we're in a movie theater and you decide, you're going to attack,
Acme and I'm have great striking but it's dark and all of a sudden you've got my you've got me in a body lock. My striking is not going to help me right there. This is not mean that I am. I'm not anti striking at all.
I mean, obviously you have to know how to strike and you know, if you don't know how to strike at all, that's bad. And you should learn because there are times even in even in self-defense thing. If I decide to can't run, it doesn't mean I grabbed you. I'm still going to try and punch you and knock you out, right? I'm not. I don't want to grab, you don't want to get a grappling match with you. I'd rather just knock you out and walk away.
You know, Taco I'm not Point striking. I mean some of the let's just see some of the more well-known and respected striking styles do incorporates.
A grappling such as voice acting training, they will grab you
and, and sweep you and put you on the
ground. There we go. So, so some of these martial arts have more than one of these aspects, of course. I was just playing a bit with a very broad, brush brush about the takedown game, the Striking round game. But but yeah, if you look at a Muay Thai and actual multi practitioner, who's well-versed, they will definitely grab
you and only you can ruin your day is when they when they clinched you and get your head bent over and started seeing you in the face. Yeah, that's that's
It's gonna Jack you up. And yeah, that's why you need to know striking. So let me ask you this. We're looking for a Jiu-Jitsu school. Never done Jiu-Jitsu before.
What are you looking for in a Jiu-Jitsu
school? My goodness? Let's see.
Besides the typical how far were the gym is. Let's put this all behind but those are important. Yeah,
the actual people, this all the time, if you've got two schools that are won't one's a little bit better, one's a little bit worse. But the one that's worse is you don't have to drive very far to I'm going to measure that. And I'm going to take that into consideration because I don't know about normal people, but I don't have a lot of time to be driving around, you know, spend 48 minutes to get to the gym, to train for an hour and then 48 minutes to get home. That's, that's going to take a big chunk out of my day. If
A place that's nine minutes away. My go to the 9 minute, please.
What about the facility? Do you want? Is it very important to you? That the place has weight? Sauna? Is this kind of stuff important to you. Do you value the Traditional School? Do you want the school this more relaxed. Do you want the, you know, what, kind of environment are you comfortable with? What kind of environment do you want? Are you asking
me this question? Yeah, that is definitely. Okay. I mean, hypothetically yeah, you already know what kind of cool I like because we have a school that
That I like we have we built the school at. We want to train at which is fairly relaxed. Lots of facilities, always a place to train. So we've kind of got an ideal situation here. Most people don't have that opportunity to have such a good place Under One Roof, you know, most people they have to kind of pick and choose. They got to go to a gym, to work out. They got to go to a gym for their Jiu-Jitsu. They got to go to a gym for their boxing and striking. They got to go.
They got to be got to mix it up. So we don't really have that problem. But yeah, if that's someone, if that's something that's oh, gee Yogi, you know, we do both here and oh, yeah. So what about what about the
coach? I've seen this before where and some of them are my friends. By the way, I won't say names. I mean, very, very famous competitors that will have a gym, but they'll have many of these gems and the probably come by the each gym twice a year, or something like that. So,
So the if you have this world renowned athlete who is not their teaching, specifically is his assistant teacher teaching. Well, do you know what kind of style he is, do get along with his demeanor, his teaching style and that's very important because myself anyone whose it was let's say accomplished or maybe any kind of black belt is going to have a different type of teaching style. And not every Champion famous guy is going to be a good teacher and there's some teachers who were not even
Really want world-renowned, but they're great teachers. Yeah, pens in the person, depends on what you Vibe with. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, because there's,
I thought you were kind of setting it up for hated the, the main instructors not around. So, that's no good. But that's actually not true at all. There's some places where the main the guy that's on the ground, the black belt, or even the brown belt, or even the purple dots on the ground every day. That's totally new Jutsu. That's he might be a great instructor. And so, you might find that, and, and you do have some kind of
Person, that's overseeing it. That might not be the greatest instructor. So, yeah, you got to look at the person that's there kind of day-to-day helping you and teaching, you. And, and then what are you training Partners? Like, I mean, if you think about it, there was a long time. Where I mean, I I learned 90% of my Jujitsu from you. Right? And I had great instructors, you know, but I trained with you. I wasn't trained my instructor when we were at Fabio's, Fabio's teaching everyone and he's training with everyone and he definitely taught me a lot, but I was training with you everyday and
You were the
one that was like, telling me. Hey, don't do this. Do that. You know, so you got to look at your training part. What are your training Partners like at your gym?
Or if I've used to kick us off the mat. You have no social life, figured out of here.
We have that here too. You know, you got like little cliques of guys and they train with their group and and they're getting really, they get really really good because they have a little core group of guys differing with all the time.
Yeah, you know some this happened recently of someone I've been training friend of mine.
He's a retired cop and one of the places close to where he lives. He went there to try it out. And you said it was just, it was kind of a bully environment and that's not really high. I trained my guys, my girls so that was our friend. Now for someone else that might be looked at as competitive really cool. So I was all about perception mean that I would never say that. That plays a pretty good head instructor by the way, but wasn't for him. So I think if someone goes in
Actually, if the instructor of the school didn't know you were from the town that you were at. Not really saying to lie, but just want to say you want. Want to pay for a day pass. You just you just looking around and don't really don't really let them know you you're from that City. So you don't get the sales tactic, you just get to try it out. See what you think, you pay the day pass or whatever after several, more than one. One option. You see which school you Vibe with my opinion? That's a good way to start.
Yeah, and there's not really too.
Too much of a threat of someone, being a fraud
anymore, just a, straight-up frogwares to be, who are all my black
belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and really they've never, they're not a black belt. They haven't trained. They really don't have much game and they're on
YouTubers. She Type in fakeblock Ball on YouTube. I mean, there's isn't it examples? And what's funny? I don't see it. I guess it's comical, you get the guy who obviously off camera was caught with some BS and now on camera. He's like why don't want to roll.
Because to someone who's done Jiu-Jitsu, you really cannot fake that, you just can't. Even if you're strong athletic. You could actually look like when you walk around, you can get fit, you know, in Brazil. There's guys who get fake. Well, it's actually real cauliflower ear, but they actually damage your ears on purpose. Just so they look like like a real tough fighter, but they're not Fighters that actually happens a really yeah. Action Brazil girls and they'll notice that your
ears. Yeah, different cultures. So there,
I mean, maybe they getting plastic surgery for that. And seriously, I don't know.
I've seen it in Brazil, where that that's happened a few times. Although most guys. Don't do that. Most guys would call player in Brazil. There's a reason to have it. I bet your cauliflower. Here is a fake. Yeah, that's going to be next good insult and Brazil, I'll figure out how to use
that. Yeah. There's there's a and the whole idea like the old-school idea of like, a being a fake black belt, in some random martial art thing, that never really gets tested didnít crazy, bro. You post a lot of these on your Instagram like the fake, the fake.
Take. What is that? There's
an like when someone yeah, their class their Chi out of their palm and like five guys fall to the ground flailing their funny. But but really I just like human psychology. Hypnotism type
thing. I've heard that before that, there's, there's a willingness to want to blend in with the other people around. You and acceptance. I don't know, or maybe it's weakness. I don't know, you know, this kind of stuff can be dangerous because
Okay, for self-defense training. I do have students that come in especially sometimes females who just want to learn self-defense. And of course, they really should learn grappling and continue doing it. It's hard to learn grappling in five days, but there are workshops we do and they help their better than nothing. They're good launch pad, therefore different for a training career, exactly for anyone male, female, whatever you.
Cuz if anybody thinks you're going to get good at fighting in five days,
you're wrong. That's just
wrong. It's like trying to get good at playing guitar in five days or trying to get good at playing chess and five days. It's
Happened Jacque. What you think about these in the magazines and what you see?
Navy's fuel, US Army Ranger hand-to-hand combat system, become a deadly machine in five days. Yeah, our money back guarantee. That's it. Got to be like cringe. Yeah, do those things? Still exist. I've seen a few of them not as much as
before, I guess. Magazines. Don't really exist. As much as they used to, but like, back in the day Soldier of
Fortune. Oh, yeah, and just and like Black Belt
Magazine and there were some legit things in there, just like there was legit things in, in Soldier of Fortune. I mean, Soldier Fortune did a bunch of Awesome.
Views back in the day and black like you earn. Were you on the cover of Black Belt Magazine?
Grappling several times? I thought you want to cover a black belt
one time.
Yeah. Yeah, I think I was. So there was like a legit. There was like, legit things in there. But then, yeah, there would be advertisements in their
Navy SEAL Ranger.
And the funny thing is when those guys said they trained Navy, Seals. It was probably true. Yeah, because in the SEAL Teams, we would hire people to come in and see what they had. You know, like oh, what's your system? Let's see what you got. Let's see if it's effective or ineffective. And so it's probably the truth, but it's an altered truth. Oh, here's what I saw. I
recently a few weeks ago.
It was one of those YouTube commercials where you have to wait, five seconds to the next clip that you want to watch it, because it said, it said he is, he has or 400 bar fights to his name, and I'm like, son. I'm gonna watch it now. And he is in game two, tours of Iraq. And he's a army range, is something our me something. And I'm like, okay, see his secret to win, any bar fighting and I'm like, okay, so that does exist. Sometimes, they actually just was a different form a time for some reason. I didn't buy it.
It. But I saw that as an advertisement. Yeah, they do
exist, your jiu-jitsu instructor. Just to say this, for the thousandth time. Your jiu-jitsu instructor is not God or a god of any form. So, if they're walking around, they just been training. Jiu-Jitsu longer than you, you know, that's just the way it is. So if they're trying to treat you like, you're
uh,
surf on their on their giant land and you owe them. Like that's not a cool relationship out of the
Have with an instructor, your instructor should be cool. And there's all kinds of good instructors all over the place. Now. I mean, Jiu-Jitsu. So widespread now compared to when we started it's
ridiculous. I have seen a few times where the senior belts will look down upon the more Junior belts, but not the mortgage. It's cooled because only a few times. I always think
that so when when I beat someone in Jiu-Jitsu, I would think. Well, I'm just been training longer than them. Yeah, and when someone beats me I'm like, okay cool.
You've been training longer than
me. They got lucky.
You can get lucky and Jiu-Jitsu for sure, you know, someone makes a mistake and you can get lucky that, that happens. It happens less. Yeah, but it can definitely happen. Now. This is an interesting subject in my mind. Some people, do you think that there's some people? Obviously, there's some people that are naturally inclined to be good Grapplers. You are a mutant who is genetically predisposed? Almost engineered.
Be a dominant, Grappler of all sorts of Jiu-Jitsu of zombo of wrestling, your kind of naturally predisposed your frame, your mind. Everything is sort of geared towards as if you were designed from the ground up to
be a an
incredible Grappler,
right?
Maybe it, maybe this case.
No. No, I mean, that's factually the case. If you look at, if you if, if I was to try and design a Grappler, I would I would pretty much make you, right. I mean, right. I mean, you've got like, your, you got this weird Fleck for a strong as you are? Not as flexible. As you are. That's a weird combination. Write your pain tolerance is very, very high, your but also part of his, just your mentality or your mental understanding of jujitsu and
And on top of that, you created your creativity with grappling. It's all like this weird combination that makes sort of a mutant. So you're on the extreme, my mind. You're on the extreme end of built for grappling. I would say
that types of Learners. There's audio based Learners as visual-based, Learners in this, the kinesthetic / tactile based on us. I'm definitely the third the last category so that helps him grappling. Also the type of strength. It's
Not, it's not as explosive as would be needed in football. I mean, I was okay at football. Oh, but if I grab the guy, I would even leaving arm tackles. I'd die of with warm grabbing and I get them. I'm not saying every time, but I would do that, but I couldn't dive as far as the other guys. See, I was fast off the line as a linebacker. So for that sport, so different type of strength, different type of explosiveness, of course, is a lot of overlap. And of course, you train with someone like Randy Couture
He's got that grip when he has you. It's you you're in trouble. I have I'm kind of similar to that as far as winning grab someone this hard for them to get away. So in the realm of grappling, I mean, you can say who's faster strong and someone who's heavier who's lighter, but really the higher level Grapplers have that amount of was it prerequisite? I got you. I got you a type of
strength, but then if you go too far with that, like some wrestlers, don't convert well over Jutsu because they don't have the, they don't have enough like me.
Idiom twitch right there, just to explosive the gas
out. Yeah, we'll see in wrestling that pace is super intense, but it's six minutes. That's a miserable hard. Yeah. Hard six minutes. I mean, it has his own sport. It's almost like comparing sprinting versus. I don't know. The, the quarter-mile versus the five-mile versus the mayor. I'll do it.
Even though the hundred meter versus the 200-meter. Those are different athletes. Yeah, and then the and then the huh,
M vs. The versus the 800 is definitely a different app athlete. And yes, you go to the look at someone that does the hundred meter dash for a living versus someone that runs a marathon for different for a living. Those two people are those are two different types of humans. So, there's a difference like, I would say, I would say, well, maybe you could disagree with me. But your you have a better body style for submission, grappling, than you do for straight wrestling. Yes, would you rewrite? Yeah, because I don't know why.
But back when I was in high
school, I was doing in the offseason Greco-Roman wrestling with Freestyle Wrestling and with Samba. That was the first time I was doing submission, they'll get there was people, there was one, one of my friends. He could beat me in Greco and the same day. He beat me. I don't know eight to four, I submitted him. I don't know in 30 seconds with what's in Samba. I'd submit him in 30 seconds. He couldn't last one to thirty seconds. With me with submission. I don't know why he could beat me in Greco-Roman
wrestling. Yeah. See that's
What I'm saying and part of that is your brain part of that is your brain. Your brain is more, your brain. Has a has a innate understanding of submission grappling. And I don't know if that's learned. I don't even think it's learned, though. I think it's just your part of its learned obviously, but you're born with, you know, I had a conversation with my daughter that that and she would say, I like wrestling more than jiu-jitsu.
Which new, of course, broke my heart, but at the same time, it's cool. But when I asked her, why, and this is when she was like, maybe in her sophomore year of wrestling. And I would ask I asked her why I do, you know, as a freshman year I asked her. Why do you let why? Like, what are you talking about? Why do you, you know, you've been doing Jiu-Jitsu for a long, long time and all of a sudden you like wrestling more and she said, wrestling is simpler. All you have to do in wrestling, is I take the person down and put their back on the mat and I win. Jujitsu. There's all kinds of these other things go.
Nod, you know, you got to think about the half guard and the and the full and I know that wrestling has all those technical things to at the higher level. But like when you look at what you get in introduced to, there's a lot more to think about if you take all white belt in Jujitsu and a white belt and wrestling, the white belt wrestling. You're like, okay. This is what you need to do, put their back on the mat, the white belt in Rat, Jutsu, you have to teach explain, all kinds of different positions and everything to him.
So that the elbow, the wrist, the need ankle. The neck, what write-ups?
Side down, inverted backwards upside what? Yeah, it's a there's so many ways to I said this roughly now, I compared striking with submissions strikings like a musical, instrument Rhythm, different combinations. Whatever of course, is pitched tone on the road, but grappling is more like tying knots together if you and by the way, each each arm and leg is a rope. So you give me four or five ropes. How many ways can I tie them together? I mean, is it?
Fit by the way, how long is the Rope? I mean infinite? So it's just completely different, you get an expert professional mountain climber. They can tie knots behind their back and blindfolded and the but I was person can't do that. So there's different type of talent mental wise as far as who's going to be better at what. So so yeah, the grappling is just its own type of thing, but I think everyone could benefit from doing it. Yeah,
and the other thing is I described you as having like a good body.
Aisle four Jiu Jitsu, but I think the biggest advantage in Jiu-Jitsu is a long lanky body. Do you
agree?
On paper. Yes, but Marcelo Garcia is not lanky. So, so so. So Ricardo Arona is not linked. Yeah, you see is a little shorter than me. But Hydra Gracie is Hardy based. He is Keen cornelius's. Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. Yeah. Andre galvao is not linking. Right? Right. So, so, what's, what I think is really cool about Combat Sports, in general, is that there is a way to make your body type into a world champion. Yeah. Yeah. Because
Or two examples of every body, type by the way for boxing.
It was always considered except for like, you look at Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Mike Tyson. I mean look at these heavy weights now, I mean the klitschkos. Well not right. Now. Most of them are linked you guys but then who is the guy Joshua just got knocked out by Ruiz? Yeah, Ruiz was not linking so that how tall is Ruiz. I'm not sure. I don't know. Six foot. I don't know. Really.
Really? Well,
yeah. Because Tyson's my height weight. When Tyson's like my yeah, he's 511. I met him at all
times. Yeah,
he's 511. He fought at 225 good fight meant to lift.
He knew my name coming out. I was I was dang crazy. Yeah, but man, he would
get inside on someone because it's rather on those. I forgot
he would use his body to make his style stronger. So our paper. Yes, you're right there. Scream or linky fighters who are champions, but I don't know. Yeah, some ways.
You get, you get the guy who is 5 foot 5 with no neck. It's really hard to get a guilty on that guy. That's true. So if you find a way to use your style, yeah,
there's some people. I know some people that like they're, they're just not going to be good at striking. They're not going to be good at takedowns. Right? Like people have a natural thing and I think it's so I should say, I think it's more mental
than it is physical. Yeah, you know like
like you see here.
High school kids are dressing because obviously I got a ton of rest, a high school wrestling tournaments because, well, my daughter just graduated, but just my son, just wrestling, wrestling wrestling all the time. And you spend, you spend the weekend. I would spend the weekend at to wrestling tournaments. So I'd see 100 wrestling tournaments and you can see some people. They're just some kids just aren't good. They want to take down and even though they might not be like, I would know the kids on my own kids teens. Like, I know how long they've been resting for some of them, they want to get to take down their good at getting to take on the other ones are good at sprawl. It's like
Get a mentality for what you're good at. Yeah.
Yeah, and then you work within those bounds to if you're smart, you'll strengthen your weaknesses right true, but you won't your strengths your weaknesses, but you won't try and rely on them. You know what I mean? Yeah, you won't try and you won't go out and focus on your work. You do this. You'll go out against the wrestler and you're trying out wrestle a wrestler.
I don't know why
you'll go out against the Jiu-Jitsu guy and just try not to just do a jujitsu
guy.
I faced one of my old rivals but he's a friend of mine, Jean Genie Barrel. Then again. He wasn't really trying to take me down. And so it was kind of a I pulled a card on him like at least 12 times. And that's the wrong guy to pull guard against anyone in the world. That's the wrong guy, but I don't get food and stuff like that. So I don't know. I guess default aggressive of is better than nothing. I don't know. Yeah. I've been stubborn that way. Maybe that's can be bad.
We
have another thing about your brain. You have a very open mind when it comes to Jujitsu when it comes to grappling when it comes to fighting. But you have a very open mind. I think that's a sign of humility because you're the person that doesn't say.
Oh, I know the best way to do this, do it. My way only, this is the best, even when you teach
you say. Hey, look, this is how I do it. And sometimes you say, because, you know, my game so, well, your black Jocko does this. It's different. Here's how it's different. Here's why it's different.
What is it? Where did you originally learn that? You needed to keep an open mind when it came to
jujitsu?
I think that there's so many comparisons. So for anyone who's listening, he's practiced Judo initially. They're going to be a little offended but in the end they're going to take it as a compliment. I always thought because in high school wrestling you just get down low and take down these Judo guys. They can't they can't, they can't stop it. And well, these are not Olympic athletes. First of all, second of all, they're in a higher stance, but when I started
fighting and you're a higher stance because you can't be
Down in a
super low stance in a fight. You'll get kicked in the head there. So you have to be higher to fight correctly. Well, now, those throws work from the fighting stance. So I was like, I was an idiot thinking. This stuff doesn't work. I was just close my eyes, like 17, 18 years
old. Everything can work leg locks. I was told,
for many years. This is, I'm wasting my time. I'm wasting my time. Even, Jerry Jerry. Kosta told me he was on the mat when I won. I'll be Dhabi in 2003 in Brazil. You, he said, thank God, you didn't listen to me.
So anything can work. It's
just if you feel
You're actually going down the wrong path. You pretty much know. You are, well, then listen to yourself. But if you have a pretty good hunch, not just want to say verified feeling of truth that you're going the right direction. You're some kind of belief in yourself. Maybe
listen to that. That did you ever question yourself. Did you have a question, like, the road that you were taken? Because you were taking a road that was not had not been traveled.
I knew I had to find the best way to take that road. I knew, I don't know why. I didn't, I never doubted that.
At night, I got frustrated, few
times. He was easy for me to follow you down that road because I felt the repercussions of what was happening. In other words. I know that you could submit me with heel hooks with foot locks. I knew that I mean, I felt it happening over and over again. So, for me, it was like, Hey, if you're if there's anyone in the world that says that this stuff doesn't work, or don't wants to doesn't believe that this stuff is going to work. Go roll with Dean and find out what it feels like to get your frickin ankle Crush.
Because it doesn't feel good. Yeah, a B or C or D. So that is so you you, that must have been a little bit of a feedback loop for you though because you would catch people and you go. Okay, that worked. Most people when they do move the first time even the first 10 times. It doesn't work. Do you remember, do you remember doing foot locks? Or he looks weird, didn't work and you and you just saw that there's a better way to do it or you saw the mistake that you made. I've lost tournaments.
Because of that. But I realized, you know what? I know. There's a way to make this work. I know there's a way to make this work, you know, if we look at the early uoc UFC, you'll see one, two, and four, where's Gracie, you know, you open everyone's minds and Jujitsu what's a submission know, you know, people were thinking, what you did to is the way. And by the way, it's the way it's our way. It's what we do primarily, but then the wrestlers started doing real well in Mark Coleman,
Coming in and Dan, Severn was coming in. And I mean, now people are thinking wild wrestling is the way, it's the way. And then all the sudden you had had more Smith had kicked knockout. And your whole kickboxers that actually works. Yes, it works. All works. So the thing is imagine if if if we all just think this
works the now this work. No, really,
it all works. All works all the time. You're going to find crazy exceptions to every rule. You're going to find some people that have
Incredible resistance to punches, but they can't take, you know, you can choke him out one second and there's some, there's some strange guys. I met were
harder. Tok Lai, Chi, Joel. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
He actually let you like, I can make him tap the fear and control, but was hard, but it's hard. Yeah, he would actually people get their arms tired choking him with a rear naked choke. Yeah, that's his are in. I think he kind of liked it. I don't know.
I'm not sure he had a very
relaxed look on his face.
And then he would get out and you were
tired. He would beat you. Yeah, and he actually won his mixed martial arts fights. That way he. I was even corner. I didn't know he was fighting. I was just there by coincidence. Joel and he's there, and he's so amazing. Yeah, Kenny, I cornered him and he went out. There
took the guy down. Let him get his back. Yeah, let the guy choked him. The guy got tired, turn around and submitted them. This is just crazy. I mean, there's some
characters out there, you know, so that's what we're gonna do. You know, that's, that's extreme. That's the only guy I've ever met a life like that. So
yeah, that's something is so that
idea for me, the idea of having an open mind of looking at everything. This is probably one of the most profound things that I took away from Jiu-Jitsu and a lot of it's because I was just watching you listening to other people, you know, you'd come and you'd say that's what this person look like. We will see a video or we'd go to a seminar on. You'd be like that. What this person said here made a lot of sense. This didn't this did. Here's why and you'd like break it down for me, but you always had
Open mind about not thinking that you knew everything even right now, even right now, you'll be like, oh, I saw this thing. I saw a tournament. Did you see this match you? And you say this is what the person did. This is an improvement over what I used to do or it's it's another angle from what I do right now. And here's what you could do to counter it, man. You were going over some counters with me the other day and, and it's just crazy. You know, it's crazy that you sit there and look at it, you go. Okay. This is a great system. What this person is doing here.
Here's how you could counter these things. Here's a simple movement. Here's a simple, press arm position that puts that thing down. So that attitude that you have from Jiu-Jitsu, which is, I don't know everything. It's the humility. I think that's probably one of the things when I talk about you being a mutant that's designed for grappling. If you didn't have that kind of open mind, you would have locked into the same mentality that everyone else locked into. And they started Jujitsu which is hey, this is the way you do it. These are the moves.
There are no other moves. These are the moves and you from day one were looking at it going. Oh, no, there's other
possibilities. There's one that recently I was putting this into words and my past probably five seminars and told her story. I'll get a little technical but not to down.
One road doing the lake Loch where I'm sitting. I go straight back. Well, that used to be how everyone did it back in, 93 94, but everyone was getting mounted. You went straight back, the person would Mount you over and over and over. So the Brazilians were like, Hey, listen, we're going to fall to our side. Now, it made them out really hard to implement as a defense for about two years. Matter of fact, I probably
want 20, or 30 matches
falling to no more falling to my side, even had like five or six.
4 lakhs of one man. One day I used to get these all the time and like, one triangle. I used to go and win my division than the absolute. It was, those were good times and LA. But so, the Brazilians were falling to the side with the flock to stop them out. It took about two years to wear like, guys are losing your Vieira guys, like him would just jump over your foot because you fall decide. Well,
because you fall decide, they can now jump
over your foot if you fall backwards. Well, now they can mount you. So what's the solution? How about you fix where your foot sat? So you don't have to follow your side and you go straight back. And so people just I've seen that they all just follow your side for the time flies as soon as they follow their side. I'm already over the foot. But if I grab your foot and don't follow my side, but my other foot is is
rearranged now, I don't have to follow my
side. So simple cover-ups supple.
Patience is simple. Simple. Simple. Like why do people fall to decide? How about we don't have to do anymore. It's that simple. We can like restart the structure of the technique and make it better in the long run. Thanks. It does. Make does work.
Yeah, and that's the kind of thing. You've been breaking down for well, as long as I've known you man, one time, big difference. Hey, man, cool. I think that's a good place to call it for today.
Dean your main social media right now is Instagram Instagram, where you post random random things exposed random things and why does my thing now?
Yeah, you
post random things or if you want to check out Dean at Dean Lister, that's his Instagram and the industry
BJJ. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah. Okay. So
at d-lister BJJ, okay. There you go. So if you want to check that out.
I'm at Jocko willing. I'm on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook at that. If you need a geek for you to Jutsu experiences, go to origin. Main.com, and I have another podcast called Jocko podcast, where I talked
about or life, and life, and getting after it.
Anyways, thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
Oats.
