Brené Brown Strong Back, Soft Front, Wild Heart

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Brene, Brown says that our belonging to each other, can't be lost but it can be forgotten. Her research has reminded the world in recent years of the uncomfortable life-giving link between vulnerability and courage. Now, she's turning her attention to how we walked into the crisis of our life together. And how we can move Beyond it with strong backs, soft fronts and wildhearts.

I don't think when we're our best.

With each other. I don't think that's what's possible between people, I believe that's what's true between people and I don't think we have to work to make it true between people. I think we just have to get the stuff out of the way that stopping it from

happening. I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being brene. Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston. She consults widely with corporate military and athletic leaders and her TED Talks have come into millions of homes.

Alms as have her books. Most recently, dare to lead. We spoke in 2018 when she just published braving the wilderness.

One of the many reasons that you work reaches people is that you the things you write about and do your research on your also, completely open about how they are things, you struggle with. And I think that, you know, often you, your research is a way for you to, is this a very special way. You have to delve into the things that that you're navigating and then in fact, we are all navigating. That's true. You know, it turns out to be good for the rest.

Rest of us. And but so in this in your more recent writing and your new book on braving the Wilderness, you

you talk about your childhood and you know that the Dynamics were so completely different in the 1960s, even though it isn't that long ago, plus you had moved to New Orleans which in 1969, the whole notion of racial belonging was right at ahead of its, you know, yet again at a new tumultuous stage and and also your parents divorce and the not belonging in your family and how that you know, one thing you say, is that you do you

That as a spiritual crisis and you said and not belonging in our families. And of course, so many of us have just so many different permutations on this. You say, is one of the most dangerous

hurts. Yeah. I had never thought about it. Really. I had never thought about the concept of not belonging even though I lived it. I never thought about the concept of not belonging at home as being such a universal experience of pain.

Until I don't know how long ago, maybe eight or nine years ago. I was doing some research and I was in a middle school and I was doing focus groups with middle schoolers and I was asking these middle schoolers, what the difference was between what they thought the difference was between fitting in and belonging and they just had these like incredibly simple and profound answers, you know fitting in is when you want to be a part of something. Belonging is when others want you just they just rattled one off after.

There. And I was so taken aback and then a young girl raised her hand and said, you know, Miss it's really hard not to fit in our belong at school but not belonging at home is the worst and when she said that probably half the kids, either burst into tears or just put their heads down like unable to speak other kids gave examples, you know, my parents were really athletic and popular. I'm not athletic.

I'm not popular. I don't fit in with my family. I don't belong there and just this thing washed over me of for a middle schooler and you know that

age, know

for a middle school or to say, hey, not. Belonging here is tough, but there's nothing worse than not belonging at home.

You understood I felt the magnitude of it in my bones.

You make this some

just the way you make this observation. I think the way you make it a so helpful. He said, you know, it's partly because we are neurobiologically hardwired for belonging connection where part wire to want it and need it so much that the first thing we do is sacrifice ourselves and who we are to achieve

The irony, right? Yeah, we were desperate for it. I think if you look at if you look from a the lens of neurobiology are even evolutionary biology as a social species to not be wanted and to not belong to the tribe or the clan or the group meant death. I mean, we know we are wired for thus, it is John cacioppo on the University of Chicago who does this in

We'll work on loneliness says, you know that the only real biological Advantage. We have over most other species is our connection. Our belonging our ability to collaborate plan be in relationship with in special ways. And so that desperate need to belong is not a Neurosis. Or it's not a ego-driven thing that need to belong and be a part of something greater than us.

Is who we are in our DNA.

I love that. Also. In fact, the genius a source of the genius of our species, right? I mean, that's the implication.

That's it that it made it is yet what we do to ensure that were accepted in fit in ensures, that we have no sense of belonging.

So, you use this language of true belonging so talk about what are the qualities of true belonging as opposed to that those many things we do that feel like belonging but as you say, are, are a hollow substitute for True belonging. What is that?

Well, you know what? I started looking in to belonging and I started really wanting to understand the bones of belonging. Like, what is it mean? What how to, how do we like from a researchers perspective and probably my own personal armor. Yeah, really is. What are the data here? Like, what, what exactly is happening here? And I think the first thing that was surprising to me, is that at the very heart?

A spirituality, not religion, not Dogma, but spirituality and a very important specific tenets of spirituality, which I believe cuts across faith and denomination and belief system. And by spirituality. I mean the deeply held belief that were inextricably connected to each other by something greater than us. And that thing that is greater than us.

Is rooted in love and compassion that there's something bigger than us and that we are connected to each other in a way that cannot be severed.

And so when I started to look at belonging, what I realized is that it is a spiritual practice and it's the spiritual practice of believing in ourselves and belonging to ourselves. So fully that we find what sacred and not only being a part of something like our DNA calls us to be but also, we find Sacred.

The need on occasion to stand alone in our values in our beliefs, when we're called to do that as well.

And so to me, this idea of true belonging is a type of belonging that never requires us to be inauthentic or change who we are, but a type of belonging that demands who we are, that we be, who we are, even when we jeopardize connection with other people, even when we have to say, I disagree, that's not funny. I'm not on board, right?

So I think all the way through this thinking and writing you do, and especially as it continues to develop, you know, you use the word paradox, a lot. I also overuse the word paradox, but the thing is, like, that sounds like a, you know, cancel like an academic word. But in fact, it is just a description of the way life works. And the fact that we are not like we are not a combination of either. Oars we are, we are just this multitude of both ends, like, right at any given

Moment. Yes. So so this thing the spiritual practice of belonging is also being able to stand alone when called to do. So and then also like like the contrast of that with loneliness, which is this crisis, right? But that that somehow also to combat this crisis of loneliness. We have to learn the spiritual practice of being able to stand alone when we are called to do that. As part of the practice of belonging.

Yeah, I mean it

sounds so, you know, it's like I always think about the Latin like Paradox in like this. The source of the word means seemingly absurd. But really true, you know, like what were both saying, sounds like crazy, but I think our need to push away the word paradox, and the need to our need for either or not and is driven by our lack of capacity for vulnerability. It's really

I just tried all that tension of. Yes, and yeah, it's really hard to straddle that. Yes. I want to belong. I want to be a part of something bigger than me and I'm willing to stand alone when I need to. And it's also hard to say. Look. What if loneliness is driven Often by changing who we are, being perfect saying, what we're supposed to say, doing what we're supposed to do. What if loneliness is driven in part.

By our lack of authenticity that what I can go to a party and I can be the belle of the ball and come home completely disconnected lonely anxious because never, once during that experience was, I myself? I was who I want. I thought they wanted me to be, you know, and so I do think

I don't want it to be true. To be honest with you Crystal. Like I think in some ways it kind of sucks that your level of true belonging. Yeah can never be greater than your willingness to be brave and stand by yourself. I kind of hate it a little bit. Yeah, but it's just what I found is just it's how the men and women that have the highest levels of true belonging show up in their lives.

I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today with social researcher and wise woman, burn a brown.

You,

you know, you make these distinctions that I think are helpful between standing alone and Lonesome and lonely. And that those are not all the same thing.

I mean, everyone knows this, like, in my family, we call it the lonely feeling like we named it. So our kids could articulate it

like, yeah, I really ask you what? That is. So interesting. You like you're in your family, you'll say. I've got that

Feeling are your kids will say? I had that lonely

feeling. Yeah, they'll say, you know, I was with a group of friends and I had the lonely feeling and I think we all know everyone knows that experience of being surrounded by people and feeling completely alone. Yeah.

Because I think you can be alone and with people because you're not connected to those people, there's no connection there. And so I love again cacio pose. Definition of loneliness is being on the outside looking in.

When I stand up alone in the wilderness and take a stand on something, I believe in or stand up for something. I don't think is, right. I do think is right. I feel connected to every other person who's made that pilgrimage through the Wilderness, people. I know people, I don't know, but admire, I don't feel

So let's talk about how again, we're in this deep. Territory Paradox. How what you're describing?

Is the opposite of the standoffs that we have on every side of every, you know, across the spectrum of our culture. Right now. It's like standing up for what we believe in as a way of moving behind our defenses. So, so I think one way a good way to get into that is, you know, you have done this research on the elements of belonging true belonging when that's really happening. And so, the first, the first element is people are

Hard to hate close-up. Move in. So this soap. So again, what you're talking about is not the stance of moving through the world being solitary and righteous self-righteous now.

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we've seen and you know, I write about this in this chapter called high Lonesome, which is like my favorite tradition and blue grass is high Lonesome. It's kind of Bill Monroe and this kind of whaling and sorrow captured in music and

And I talked about this High, Lonesome culture that we're living in right now, where we are the most sorted that we've ever been, in terms of most of us no longer even hang out with people. Yeah. That disagree with us politically

ideologically or sorting csos. Ort sorting sorted.

Yes. Sorted out as opposed to sort it

exactly. As I do. Yeah, I gotta be pretty sorted right now too. So I just wanted to.

Yeah, no, we've sorted ourselves.

To yes, we've sorted ourselves into kind of ideological bunkers and what's so crazy is how that kind of social demographic changing of sorting into these ideological. Bunkers tracks exactly with increasing rates of loneliness. Yeah, and so, I would argue that and this goes back to your Paradox, nine times out of ten. The only thing I have in common

Common with the people behind those bunkers is that we all hate the same people and having shared hatred of the same people or the same. I call it common enemy

intimacy. Yeah, right. I that's a good phrase.

Yeah, like our connection is just an intimacy created by hating the same people is absolutely not sustainable. It's counterfeit connection. So it's no it's not true. Belonging. Oh God, it's not true belonging. It's hustling of the

I mean, it's just hustling.

And so my question was for the men and women, who really carried the sense of true belonging in their hearts. They didn't negotiate it with the world. They carried it. Internally, they brought belonging wherever they went because of their because of their strength and their spiritual practice around it. What did they have in common? And so this first practice of true belonging is, you know, people are hard to hate close-up move in like when you are really struggling with someone.

And it's someone you're supposed to hate because of ideology or belief move in. Get curious, get closer. Ask questions try to connect, remind yourself of that. Spiritual belief of inextricable connection. How am I connected to you?

In a way that is bigger and more Primal than our

politics. Actually. I think the real spiritual or at least hand in hand with that the spiritual practice. You're pointing at is reclaiming, our belonging are human belonging and having a courage to stand alone in our own groups to transcend that the kind of tribal politics. Is that

fair? Yes, that's exactly right. So that

This sorting something we just say you're not going to live this way.

You know, I've probably been in front of letting think realistically.

25,000 people, since this book came out on a book tour across the United States. And every time I ask audiences, raise your hand. If you deeply, love someone whose vote in 2016, you find in comprehensible and 99% of hands, go up and

We have to find a way like, you know, that I ask how many of you are willing to sever permanently your relationship with the person you love because of their vote and maybe one or two hands goes up. I'm not, I'm personally not willing to do that. Now. I'm not going to tolerate abuse or I'm not going to tolerate dehumanizing language. I'm not going to have a curious and open dialogue with someone whose politics

And Sisson diminishing my Humanity. Yeah, those are lines. That were very clear with the research, participants, but short of that. I'm going to lean in and I'm going to stay

curious after a short break.

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I'm Krista Tippett. And this is on being today. I'm with social researcher brene Brown, a wise, thinker and writer, and a sought out teacher by leaders in many fields. She's turning her attention ever more to how we walked into the crisis of our life together. And how we can move Beyond, it are belonging to one another across every social divide. She

As can never be lost, but it can be forgotten. This conversation was my second with Brunei. We spoke once before in 2012 when her research and Ted Talks on shame and vulnerability had gone viral.

You know, Bernie I was I was looking at the transcript of our conversation, you know, I quoted something at you that you said that feeling vulnerable imperfect and Afraid is human. It's when we lose our capacity to hold space for these struggles that we become dangerous and I feel like we have continued to walk into that to an extreme that. I mean, not, you know, when I say, I'm not surprised. I'm dismayed heartbroken, right?

But we could have seen this coming. I mean you I want to read what you said then too because it's more true. Now, you said I'm hoping it's not wishful thinking but I think we're sick of being afraid and I think there's a growing silent majority of people who are really kind of thinking at a very basic human level. I don't want to spend my days like this. I don't want to spend every ounce of energy. I have ducking and weaving. I don't know where we'll go next, but I really believe with every fiber of my professional and personal self that we won't move forward without some honest.

Oceans about who we are when we're in fear and what we're capable of doing to each other when we're

Let me tell you something, when people are in fear.

And in uncertainty and we live in a culture that has no capacity for the vulnerable conversations that have to come around that

fear, right? For actually facing the fear, right? Actually facing lettuce, right Haines and that fear show themselves as pain and fear. That's right. If that theory is sitting there, waiting to be spoken to

If it's burrowed metastasized, then it can be leveraged. Now, you hold fear in front of you and you say, we're fearful, we're in so much uncertainty. There's so much change at such a rapid rate. If you hold fear in front of you, it doesn't dictate your behavior.

But I think because we've lost our capacity for pain and discomfort. We have transformed that pain into hatred and blame. Yeah. It's like it's so much easier for people to cause pain than it is for them to feel their own pain,

right? Yeah. I mean, you talk about that that it takes courage did it to allow yourself to feel pain? It's not a comfortable option.

I mean, the other thing I think is that we we reward Outreach and we don't reward or create spaces where it would be actually trustworthy or reasonable to invite people to show their fear and their pain. Just as that, right? That vulnerability.

It's funny because I think that's changing. You know, one of the things I'm super curious about. Can I just interview you now? I've got a lot of questions for you Krista. I do have a lot of questions on track. All

right.

Okay. So here's my question for you.

So, one place I see this shifting is more and more in the corporate sector right now with the me to movement and this Reckoning. We're having around sexual violence and sexual harassment, and assault of women. We see again, the corporate sector taking really firm hard stands on this while we see Zero movement in the government and politicians. Yeah.

And we see

corporate sector really questioning their tolerance for the bombastic raging, you know, shut people down speak at, not to, it's unusual. I guess, for me. I wonder what's happening. Can you tell me what's

happening? No, I've got, well, I'll just say a little and then I'm going to turn it back to its logo. So I agree with you that

I think there's a generational shift all together and ironically workplaces and corporate sphere is more sensitive to that, like it's bubbling up and having an effect. Whereas, our political life is just such a in such a tangle. So, like that one place. Unfortunately, that one place is where we look to see where leadership is and what's important and what's powerful. But like I feel like if we can just good Buckle our seatbelts like this.

The 20 year process, right? So like I do think it's coming up in all kinds of places and it's real. I agree with you. Like you said this, it's the silent majority that growing silent majority of people. I think that is still there. I think it's stronger than it was two years ago. But until we have this thing, this this metastasize thing, you know, right there. We have to somehow it has to work its way through our system. All right, so we're going to move on from me, but that like so so the second element of belonging from your research.

Again, feels like a contradiction but it's exactly what we need. Now are just like you say speak truth and I'm going to because this is public radio. I'm going to say it here, but then we will I miss a speak to her to bullshit speak truth to be us and be civil which also like we're going to have to come up with a whole new. Understanding of what civility is always use like words like muscular and adventurous. Like, how do you what is this civility? We have to develop, which

Let in pain and fear and true.

So I really wrestled with that as I started looking and doing a research review and trying to understand what civility was. I mean, I came across this definition from a nonprofit based in Houston, The Institute for civility and government that civility is claiming and caring for one's identity needs and beliefs without degrading someone else's in the process. I mean, it goes on for another like 10 lines, but if we could just get that part I

We'd have it nailed so claiming and caring for my identity and my needs and my beliefs without degrading yours.

And I feel like you're like the third leg of these. These four elements of belonging, strong back, soft front, wild heart. Kind of starts to get at what that looks

like. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think that to me I first heard that the saying strong backs off front from Joan Halifax, who's a Buddhist teacher, and it spoke to me at the time. And I thought, I don't,

What that is, but it sounds of course, paradoxical and I don't like it because it sounds hard. I'd rather have a strong front and a strong back and a strong everything. Our deepest human need is to be seen by other people.

To really be seen and known by someone else.

And if we're so armored up and we walk through the world with an armored front, we can't be seen. And so I think when you go back to speaking truth, to be, S and beans full, it requires that strong back but it requires that soft fraud. That is it. Okay. Am I crazy? Or do I remember reading in your book? Something that said, one of the greatest acts of courage is to be vulnerable.

With someone with whom we disagree.

Yeah, that's from Frances, kissling. Yeah, but from your book, right?

Yeah, that's where I read it. And I remember thinking, when I read it boy, now, that's a measure of Courage right there. And the wild heart for me goes back to the Wilderness that I'm not afraid of the wilderness.

I'm not afraid of that space where I share an opinion and I look around and I'm just surrounded by you know, the Wilderness. I don't see anybody standing next to me or behind me. It's just my opinion and it's my belief and it's me

that that wild heart. I love that language and that reminds me something that you you actually said when we spoke last time. And it's funny because I think of this as a poem, its

Five lines is like, most of us are brave and Afraid at. Exactly the same time all day long. And you talk about the wild heart. Is that one in the same time tough and tender, and brave, and Afraid all at the same

Yeah, it is. That's, I mean, that's that's literally if I raise my kids to have that wild heart.

That can be, you know, grit and Grace tough and tender, excited and scared. You know, that can hold the tension of those things. That's all I can

And I'm sure this question comes up in as you're out there in the world talking to people, you know, you are saying we have, we have to be brave. We have to be adventurous, but it's not about making yourself unsafe. Like everybody is not called to have a soft heart and every situation, you know, I'm saying, like I struggle with this and this question comes up because there are people who are on the frontlines of danger.

So, how do you like talk about a cat where those boundaries are and how to think about that distinction? Yeah,

me, I think there are some real cultural issues. I think one of the greatest casualties of trauma is the loss of the ability to be vulnerable. And so when we Define trauma, as you know, oppression sexism racism, I have no choice, but to leave my house with my armor on, right.

Carry, the 20 tons of that through my day. No matter how crippling it is. No matter how heavy it is because I am not physically safe.

Yeah in a world or this environment. I mean, that's why I you know, I work with teachers. I tell them all the time. You may be creating the only space and a child's life where he or she can walk in hang up their backpack and hang up their armor only for the hour or two hours. This child is with you. Can they literally take that off?

And one of the things I talked about all the time when I'm working with leaders, I mean, I've ever, you know, from CEOs to Special Forces troops. I always ask the same question. Most recently, NFL teams. Give me an example of Courage that you've seen in your life or that you yourself have engaged in any Act of Bravery. That was not completely defined by vulnerability. No one has to this day. Even Special Forces me even when navies

Eels can't tell you then. No one can tell you like because the problem is there is no courage without vulnerability, but we're all taught to be brave. And there were all warned growing up to not be vulnerable. Yeah, right. And so that's the rub. And so when you have bravery without vulnerability,

That's when you get what we're looking at today.

All Bluster, all posturing no

real courage.

I'm Krista Tippett. And this is on being today, with social researcher and wise woman brene Brown.

I just recently did a conversation with two people, including.

Whitney, Kimball Co who's part of something called the national rural assembly, which I had never heard of before and it's this composed of a lot of people, who are they call themselves home comers. I mean it's people in our towns and you know rural areas it all over the country that are you know, very simplistically put on the losing side of globalization's equations. And on the losing side of a lot of what's happened so quickly in this early century.

And we got this email and I was so I was moved by it and I thought, oh, I can bring this to Brunei. So here's what she said, because it really it's like a. So it kind of brings this down-to-earth what we're talking about here. Yeah. She said,

I just listen to the episode and for someone living in a small western town. It was a lifesaver. I would really love to hear something that is focused directly on how to cope with fear. She said, especially for progressives living in small, rural, conservative leaning, leaning towns with very little ethnic diversity. There can be a pervading sense of fear, both for ethnic minorities and for Progressive activists. In addition as a writer. I received my fair share of troll attacks on Twitter and while this isn't uncommon, I struggle

Great deal with carrying fear, while trying to continue doing my work. I want to say, I want I want you to respond to that. I also want to say you're very careful and I appreciate this to say that, you know, this kind of there's fear on every side of our of our cultural equation. So this happens to be a progressive. So how would you feels to me? Like such an important question? Write that line between just staying safe and being courageous?

yeah, I mean, I think that

I think there is fear on every side and I think we are our very worst selves and fear. We are the most dangerous to ourselves and to each other and even to the people we love and were in fear. And so, when you have a situation where you've got, you're in a small town, you're either an ethnic minority, you're a progressive or, you know, whoever you are. There's got to

Here's the thing that I thought.

Was so important that while the inextricable connection between human beings cannot be severed. It can be forgotten and we need moments of collective. Joy, and we need moments and experiences of collective pain. We need to find ways to come together in those moments. And when I asked the men and women in the, in that we research that, who the participants for the

Research what are the limits of moving close to people that you disagree with? The two big pieces were physical safety? Yeah. And dehumanization. Okay, and to not understand that, that's a truth for people.

Is privileged, I mean, here's the thing. This is my bet Cristo. This is maybe in two years. We'll be talking again. Yeah, okay, we'll pull the transcript

and wrestling, you know, right now. Yeah, making it right now.

he or she

Who chooses Comfort over courage and facilitating real conversations in towns and cities and synagogues, and areas who need it. When you choose your own Comfort over, trying to bring people together and you're a leader either, a Civic leader, or a faith leader.

Your days of relevance are numbered.

I like really. Yeah, and truly. Yeah, and I think this is a good way to, to come into that fourth pillar of true belonging from your research to like, bring this really close to the ground, which is also where it happens, right? I mean, among

humans, probably, in physical

spaces, hold hands with strangers. There's a period in there. Hold hands with strangers.

Talk about what? What that is.

Yeah, it's about.

The research participants who had the highest levels of true belonging sought out experiences of collective. Joy and Collective pain durkheim. The French sociologist called this experience Collective effervescence. And interestingly. He was trying to understand kind of the voodoo magic that he believed happened in churches. Like what is this thing that where where people seem Transcendent? They're

They're kind of moving in unison. There's a Cadence and song and Rhythm and he tried to understand what it was and what he realized is, and that's what he named Collective, effervescence. It's the coming together.

And shared emotion and we have that today. We have opportunity like like trust me. I'm from Houston.

I know y'all say, I mean you've just gone through one of those experiences where this Rises up

in a way I've gone to for yeah, to I've gone through two. So I've gone through Harvey which you know, there we are six feet of water in our street, where one of only four houses left on our street. Everything else has been torn down since Harvey, everyone.

To everything you have the, you know, the Cajun Navy, which is 400 fishermen and women coming from Louisiana and, you know, swamp boats and Jet Skis and fishing boats. Pulling people out of houses, never once during this tragedy, which is still unfolding here. In Houston will be in pain for a long time around him. But never once, did someone say, hey, I'm here to help. Who did you vote for that? Just didn't happen. We just reached out and it was Collective. It was Collective.

Of pain, it was Collective struggle, but we saw hope and each other's eyes and stories and then you fast forward, you know, to baseball season and we've had this incredible experience of collective Joy with Astros winning the

World Series. That's what I mean. All right.

Yes, it was it was really it was you know, I can give us just a short story. Like I'm at the the last game playoff game against the Yankees. I'm standing on.

Another couple me and Steve, and, you know, the game of inches as they say, watching every pitch watching every batter. I cannot take my eyes off. I'm a big Sports person. So I'm glued and it's like the second to last batter. And I stick my hand and, you know, shove my hand down in my husband's back pocket and I'm like kind of holding on to his rear, you know, like ready. And the guy next to me goes, excuse me, ma'am and wasn't even my husband. She'd got up together bathroom and when he came back, he was still at the end of the aisle.

And but this guy was like, but go Astros, and it was just this, what else are you singing with? Be strangers? Hugging strangers, high-fiving people around you. Like, again, the connection between people is not, you can't sever it. But you can forget it. So, Define moments of collective, Joy and Pain, and to lean in those into those with strangers reminds us.

That something

And trust is another subject. You've done a lot of research on them and talking about and you know, like it seems to me that in order for that those moments also to to continue to be to to start to restitch us as a people to restitch us together or help us remember that, there are belonging to each other. I don't know. I just feels like that's a big one for us because so much.

There been so many hateful things said and again, like if everybody even if everybody wasn't saying them, they've landed all across the spectrum of us.

That's so beautifully. Put it's true. No matter. You know, who said them? They've landed on us, haven't they?

Yeah, my goal was just try to understand kind of what is the anatomy or the elements of trust. What is, what are we talking about? Behaviourally? When we talk about whether we trust someone or not? And so, when I think trust is falling apart.

On a cultural level. It's like one of those conversations were having right now about again, the sexual harassment, sexual violence. Reckoning in the me to movement and everyone's like complain about the lack of legitimacy and that and the apologies will we're so far away from apology time. Yeah, like

we haven't even acknowledged.

What the hurt is. We haven't even acknowledged the pain that it's caused people. Yeah, and so to build trust again, we have to think about those elements. How and where do we start building boundaries again and boundaries is like a big Ghazi word, but it's a really simple thing. What's okay, and what's not? Okay. That's it. Here's what's. Okay. Here's what's not. Okay, that's

reliable. That's really helpful.

Yeah. I mean, I think it really

establishing trust, isn't it? I mean,

Yes, of course. It has an emotional cerebral level but you're talking like it's these really practical steps

towards that super practical. If you don't acknowledge the pain that you've caused specifically and you don't make amends for it. There's no apology. That's really. Yeah, so it's very specific behavioral things. There's going to be no Hallmark movie of regrown trust in this

culture, right? Everybody. Hugs. And it's done right? They'll be no.

Hugging. Well, there may, let's Let there may be hugging there and there probably will be the Hallmark movie, but still, yeah, it won't be the last story. So, so I meant to bring your book into the studio with me and I forgot. But there, there was a part of it, where you, you were, you were interviewing somebody who, who you're drawing out on these things. You're learning about how we do all this stuff. And you say, one of my worst offenses, when I get anxious or fearful and conflict.

Put people on the stand, I break into vicious lawyer mode and depose people rather than listening lat. You know, it's terrible. That always ends badly but it's how I get to being right. And there was another one. This is what I was going to read where you, you talked about how you realize that when you're sitting with somebody, having these hard encounters. You're just thinking ahead to what you're going to say next. And then when people do that to you, you hate it. So talk about some of the like really practical things. You know, I'm in about how do how do

Like ratchet that back and like, regain sort of be your be the people we want to be in those moments.

Yeah. I think you're talking about an interview that I did with Michelle Buck, who teaches at Kellogg, the School of Business at Northwestern. And she was she teaches. I love the name of this. It doesn't. It's not conflict. Resolution. Its conflict and information. Yeah, which I think is great. And so she, I asked her very specifically for the Practical tips because I needed them for the holidays, right? But I