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Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the VOX media podcast Network. This is the Ben Shapiro show with 100% less lde. That would be little dick energy. Obviously. Just kidding, not about the little dick energy. I'm Kara swisher. And this is the first episode of on with Kara swisher. And I met Miranda. I've been producing care of for years and now I'm getting a promotion and bumped up to sidekick. I am the goose to your Maverick. You know, what happens to Goose.
He dies. Yes, but for now talk to me. Goose us Maverick likes to say, are you go? Thank you for my moment in the sunlight. Kara, just a moment before you off me. I'm going to go with it. So Kara, it's been a while since we last spoke on mic like this for our old New York Times podcast since then elon's, try to back out of the Twitter deal that's going to hearing soon. Trump has all, but declared he's running in 2024 and the queen has died, which is unrelated to the two items above. But in some way, who could blame her? Have you enjoyed your time off your son?
Vacations. Kara Swisher, I don't think Asian name, I read a major Tech conference code and I'm 16 people in major people in two days and then I've been traveling and I've done tons of interviews. I don't, I don't take vacations, I was there. I was on stage with you and my yellow serious. I love it by the way. Kara Swisher. You always need everyone to know. I'm Kara swisher and I don't take holidays. I don't take time off. I don't, I don't, I really don't. I have no time between work and the family. I just don't have any time. I think about that a lot. It's kind of sad that mean I should stop texting you so much Carol. Yeah.
That's another thing. That's another thing. So you 200 texts a day do this? Do that. Let's do that. Exactly. Well now we're going to get back to it. Tell the folks, what we plan to do today. So we're going to do things a little differently on this podcast because it's a new podcast is our chance to change. We're going to start each new episode by talking through the big news makers of the week. The people I'm watching and then we'll get to the heart of the show. A big interview this week, it's Chris Cuomo. The ousted CNN anchor, who's now launching a news Nation show and in between, we're going to play a little game this week. It's our favorite Twitter feud, but let's start.
Talking about the to newsmakers who you've told me you're watching this week, who are Google's CEO, Sundar pichai whom I recently interviewed and the not ousted much-lauded CNN, anchor Christiane, Amanpour who you love. I do. Okay. So let's start with Google, CEO Sundar pichai, who you just saw at the code conference. You had them on stage. Yep. Yeah, I think he enjoyed that more than the All Hands meeting that he seemed to have last week. We got news on Friday that there are leaks of this all hands meeting where Center was just under Fire from employees. Who are frustrated
And with the company's clamp down on perks they were asking why he's nickel-and-diming them by cutting travel budgets and why they're being forced to return to work in person. And Sundar said, I remember when Google was small and Scrappy, we shouldn't always equate fun with money. So Carol. Why, what do you think is happening here at Google? You've been covering this company for decades. I do remember when they were small and Scrappy and they did also like money then. So I just just does it a correction for Sundar. But, you know, I interviewed him. He was sort of signaling this idea because
Tivity is way down at these companies at all of them. And, you know, they spent a lot of money. These are these are high spending companies. You go there. They have food, they've got dry cleaning and got haircuts. It's literally the juveniles ation and coddling of these employees. They have over the many years and they're used to it. And when you go there, I mean one time my mother shoplifted food from them because she was like, why not? It was the most expensive food and I need snacks for my house and nobody cared. And so I think he was signaling that a lot that this is a different time and they can't keep doing that all these companies
Annie's hadn't have enormous budgets for their employees. That are just perks. As Sundar said, look, I hope all of you are reading the news externally. The fact that, you know, we're being a little bit more responsible through one of the toughest macroeconomic conditions under way in the past decade. I think that was a little shade to them. He's like you know we're in a tough time economically. Now Google is extremely profitable. Nonetheless it's a very large and successful company and I think employees are saying, you know, are you taking a cut or you kind of and they were pushing on him for even having flown out for the meeting there? Were saying why are you
Here for cutting back on travel expenses. And he's like, well, it's business-critical. Yeah. And he's also the CEO. I mean that's the problem. One of the things that they started from the very beginning, I remember being at a lot of these meetings is the employees could say anything to Larry and Sergey the original people are running their, the founders and Eric Schmidt and they would like that. They think it was cool but when it really comes down to it, ultimately a CEO is a CEO and they don't live like that again. Like I always say they're like coddled children who's been giving sugar their entire lives and you wonder why they're a little bit.
Jumpy. So you think that Larry or Sergey would have handled this meeting differently or Eric Schmidt? The, the former chairman gave is good and say God at these meetings, as I recall and, you know, the Google snack thing and all the little perks are part of their image from a law, an era that has long since gone. And now it's a company. And these people have to realize that every single one of these companies, one company had a slide. They tried to get me to go down was ridiculous and I was if I think it was 40 years old and they said, slide down the side everybody does. And I said I didn't like it when I was eight and I certainly don't.
When I'm 40, well, we'll go from this story. About Caudill Tech employees to one about the fight for women's rights and really human rights. That's playing out in Iran. Over the last week, protests have erupted across the country, over the death of 22 year old Massa meanie, she'd been arrested by morality police for suspicion of not properly, wearing her head scarf, which is mandatory in Iran. She then died in police custody, which they are saying as a heart attack, which is strange for 22, which is just led to these protests and government clamp towns, 30 people have died since
Amnesty International, at least 30. And as this was ongoing Iranian President, Abraham ruc was in the United States for the UN General Assembly and he was meant to meet with Christiane Amanpour but it didn't happen. You know, they asked her at the last minute to wear a headscarf for the interview. She has done that. When she is in those countries as a sign of respect, I think she declined she was in New York and he did not show up and I you know I think she's right. That's exactly the call. They try to change things at the last minute. They probably wanted to get out of the interview at that moment. Because what are they going to say?
And I think they use the excuse of, you know, imagine what's happening there, if you don't wear it, it probably is a bad sign. If he's sitting in front of a woman who was not wearing a head scarf, that would be, my guest was their calculation, do you think it was a missed opportunity? Because this would have been a Maurice. He's been in power for about a year. This is an opportunity to grill the Iranian president. In a moment of real accountability. Should she have grilled the hell out of him or should I know? No, she shouldn't have because she's not there to be their PR agent, right? That was that, that's what they wanted. They wanted her in that head scarf, so they could broadcast.
It back to Iran and to the women of Iran and this is a woman who's very well-regarded across the world journalists and I think she shouldn't have. So you're saying, it's PR because she would be this visual would exist in the world of her wearing a headscarf even though you know it would not be PR if she's asking him tough questions and sure but the tough questions aren't going to get to the Iranians and the visuals will. They'll use the visuals and her agreeing to put on a headscarf at this moment would have been just disastrous and I thought you made the exact right call. I agreed. By the way, I agree she made the right call. What do you think it means?
Means for young Muslim women. What's going to happen here? Yeah well I mean you know I'm a Muslim I'm don't wear a headscarf but I think it's an interesting thing. The headscarf has become extremely politicized across the Muslim world and it's gone both ways and I don't agree with it in either direction. I don't think there should be a mandatory requirement to wear a headscarf. Like there is a neuron. I also don't like when when countries like turkey has done this in the past or France, try to ban the headscarf because for a lot of women and these countries for their families, it's a ticket for
for them to go to school to have a job and they wouldn't allow it where their heads not covered. So it kind of cuts both ways. Now these protests I've been following, I spoke to a friend in Iran earlier today. Just kind of asking for that person's take because I know this person had participated in the 2009 protest, the peaceful protests and it was interesting to hear this Iranian speak about it because the way she was espousing, it was that look every generation has had a different protest in Iran in.
And it was the older Millennials you know people who are now 40, you know, they were very peaceful protest at that time and they kind of muted themselves and they then kind of laughed, they emigrated from the country and then in 2017 18, we've seen these protests come up again with headscarves and then 2019 a huge, you know, economic protest that came out bloody November where the Iranian government clamped down cut off the internet as it has done now. And she was in this protest is very different because these are gen Z and very young Millennials. And they are saying, look, this is
Is our country, we're not from a destitute country, we're not going to mute ourselves and emigrate to other places to have Economic Opportunity. We want it here and we're going to reclaim this country and that's why people like Reza. Aslan are saying this is revolutionary. I don't know if it is, but it feels different in nature and it's generational. Well, they certainly have to keep it up. I'll tell you that they have to keep doing it because these people are running, 100, do not have to clamp down, and people are dying. And so, unfortunately, they just got to keep at it. It's a slot. It's going to be a slog, and they've got to keep the excitement and the anger up at the same time.
I think will be interesting to see also with the u.s. does with it because obviously Obama made progress with the Iranians Trump did not, let's see what Biden does. All right, Cara before we get to the interview we're going to first play a little game. I've always wanted you to be the Judge Judy of Twitter. I already am. But go ahead. Well, grab your gavel, Don your row because it is time for you to weigh in on this week's controversy.
This is about Dilbert. Do you like Dilbert the comic strip care? No, I don't read it, I don't read Doonesbury anymore either. Yeah, speaking of the more liberal person, I've been a fan of Dilbert for many years, for its observation of kind of like, workplace absurdity when I started working. But cartoon has got Adams, has has gotten a little bit testy, he took to Twitter this week to report that his syndicated strip was dropped from 77 newspapers, an implied, because it was because his content was too unwell Oak. It was one newspaper chain. Correct? Exactly. That's why this one company. Dumb.
So Lee Enterprises, which owns the 77 papers and the company's been revamping their comic strip offerings. They've dropped several other comic strips and / axios. A source of said that Lee Enterprises plans to cut 400 jobs this year. So what is Scott Adams doing here? He's kind of spinning up. What could be an economic decision into this kind of culture War? Really, you know, whatever Scott, come on, come on. I'm sure, it's because you're a white man, that's it. Yes, yes, you're right. All the lesbians and people of color in the back plotting against you,
You in some fashion calling up Lee Enterprises and even know what that is. Anyway, what iowa-based? I don't care if you need to go. Visit definitely. Yeah we were there. They love us in Iowa. Let me just say. Alright, I got my trance friends too. It's crazy. We have a group when we get together and we target white men, like give me a break. Look. He said the Republicans will be hunted at the, yeah. Yeah, right. All right, we're gonna take a little break, will be back in a minute and you're going to interview, Chris Cuomo, you excited? Yes? Right. I very much am. Okay, how am I doing? Am I do? Okay.
Keep the seat. Kara talk to me. Goose.
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So Kara, It's time for our interview today with our first guest. Well, my 5000's guest, at least of all night, yes. And it's Chris Cuomo of late of CNN, where he had a very Rocky departure which is to say a firing. And now, he's back with a new show on an interesting new network, called news Nation. Yeah, I'm so interested to hear you kind of pour into the story because for media folks out there, this was one of the most interesting stories of the last year, kind of as we lost Shannon, the whole CNN of it. Yeah.
Reading at CNN that's happening it obviously they have a new owner and now there's a new person who's trying to do the same thing. News nation is trying to do. Yeah let me just run through. This is a crazy story of the machinations of power trust and betrayal. So it's this close-knit network of extremely powerful. People that starts to fall apart like a house of cards are almost like dominoes. It starts with Governor, Andrew Cuomo, Chris's brother who in the early days of the pandemic was a national hero. Whom people were quote homosexual for but by 2020 and 2021 he is steeped in scandals. The governor
The first was starts to emerge in 2020 is around nursing homes. We learn kind of around that spring but the administration have been downplaying nursing home debts. Yeah. They had an early policy that pushed nursing homes to admit or readmit residents that were covid-19 patients, obviously pretty disastrous. And then by 2021, Governor Andrew Cuomo is mired in sexual harassment allegations which I think great even allowed her Splash in the nursing home issued ID and he's forced to resign. And that investigation into Andrew actually drags down, Chris, who we Learners advice.
His brothers in ways that were journalistically, cloudy to say, the least. And as Chris goes down this launches, a CNN investigation into kind of what's going on in the shop and that takes down. Jeff Zucker who didn't disclose a relationship with his not. So, secret girlfriend, Alison go last. Who was part of the issue with Carlos was that she was exchanging messages with none other than Governor Cuomo. So, it all kind of comes full circle, it's kind of like Andrew Cuomo, took them all down. Well, if that's the media story, and that's what media is interested. And I think there's a really interesting discussion around whether it matters, why are you excited?
For this conversation, you know, I followed them. I, you know, I'm going to tell him this but I hate myself, but I really did enjoy his back and forth with his brother, even though I found it unethical and problematic, but I felt it was like entertainment more than anything. And at the same time, you know, when it was pretty clear that he was working with him and helping him, it really was a line that he crossed and I do want to talk about that and not being judgey at him. I've listened to several the interview he did recently where he talked about it, I don't agree with them. I think it's an excuse, but we'll see. I didn't want to talk about that. I want to talk to how to recover from.
Something like that. He's recovered pretty quickly. I don't know if he's fully recovered. Well, you know, he's trying to recover. Yeah, compared to a lot of people, he gets to return rather quickly. So I'm really interested in his podcast that he's doing and this and news nation, which is this attempt to be in the middle in the muddy, middle of where things are, which is sort of differing, because he really did have a point of view on CNN. So now, he's sort of espousing, you know, right in the center center, right? Center left, people are tired of this. I, it's something I agree with, but at the same time, the timing seems interesting.
Yeah, I definitely want to get to the Future and I think it's interesting because you know, he said in this he has this lawsuit playing out with CNN still he's suing them for 125 million dollars, 15 million of. That is for the contract that he wasn't paid out. And the remainder of it is because he said it'd be hard for him to work again after he was so defamed. And he is working again. He's working, you know, the smaller way. Yeah, it reminds me a tiny bit of when Katie Couric went to Yahoo very interesting. Move, didn't quite work out for her, this is slightly different, but we'll see what he has to say about what happened to him and where he's going next.
At care. Enjoy the interview. Thank you.
Congratulations on your success. Congratulations. On the new gig.
Thank you very much, I appreciate it. All right, are we ready? Yes! Ma'am! Okay, so let's get at it as you like to say. I've now taken that of your, you bringing that with you to the new
gig, let's get after it. After it is not have at Sophia preposition, so you're good to go.
Okay good. So I was watching one of your YouTube videos for your podcast which look great. Gone are sort of the sharply cut suits the network slick and you wearing these
Shirts. And you're selling merch. Let's hear a clip
the free-agent merch. It's there by it. I want to get a lot of money together. I'm thinking, like 100 Grand, and then we'll start crowdsourcing who we give it out to, so we can do some good together. I think it's really cool. Also, I like the idea of this instead of independent. Okay, I don't like the word independent because I think in America, we need to be interdependent.
Okay, let's start from there. The t-shirts, say free.
Agent and I want you to explain that for people and also, I can't help but feel you're talking a little bit and code to a different world that used to be. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm reading into it. I'd like to know if you're free now and more importantly sort of critical of yourself. Now going forward,
I've always been highly self-critical and probably self-loathing and I think that there's an aspect of that that I've been trying to address
Haven't been recently given a block of time with not much to do and we got to keep working on ourselves and sometimes your insecurities keep you from being confident because that exposes you to disappointment. And it's easier to be - I think we see that all over our culture, negativity as a proxy for insight free agent, doesn't really refer to me, it refers to you, it refers to the people who are listening, who I'm trying to reach
And so a free agent is really about everybody else, and it's people who don't want to be on a team or a tribe who have open minds and Open Hearts and are willing to listen even if they disagree.
So interestingly, you were right in the dead center of that, for a long time, you had the top show highly-paid, you were sort of a chief of that tribe. But let's talk about your decisions because where you were words of an incredibly powerful place, you had the highest rated. Our of a major News Network, it was run by your buddy, Jeff Zucker you.
Doing whatever you wanted and now you're doing something different. So let's talk about those decisions. I want to go back to 2020 where I think a lot of this started which was right in the middle of covid you had your brother on the show a talking about it and it was let me just say I kind of like the sun stunt for it's obvious entertainment and I also hated myself for liking it because I thought it was problematic. I'm not going to be unethical. I think it was problematic and uncomfortable. It was fine when it was fun and games.
Talking about informational stuff. But when you got to the governor, reals news stories, like around the Nursing Home, Des it became problematic and you did go to that. Let's talk about why you decided to do that and how you feel about it right now. And I know there's hindsight's 20/20 kind of thing.
Well, look, The hindsight's 20/20 for me is that if I had known that a grudge would be harbored because if we're giving a fair Reckoning, not many people spoke up.
Loudly in the media about disapproving of my brother being on. During that time, they did so later and I think in that is something that needs to be owned as well. The reason that they didn't come out in the moment was because it was very popular and powerful and I think if you want to speak truth to power and you want to be about somebody who's about something bigger and ethical and capital J journalism, then say it when it's not popular.
Popular to say it and not easy to say it. Let's put that to the
side. Right? Me. Why did I need your jacket for a second? Why didn't you say it? Why didn't you say it? Didn't feel it. You didn't feel you. Thought it was fine.
No. If I knew
That it was going to be harbored as a grudge. The way it was I may have had much more profound concerns early on when I was asked to have my brother
on, sure. You can all very important trait. I got that. I understand that I think there
is idea that Chris Cuomo had no boss, Chris Cuomo did as he liked when he liked how he liked. These are people who don't know our business, okay?
When Jeff decided to have Andrew on, I believe it was the right call because the country was desperate, okay? And starved for comfort, and I have never met a regular person. Meaning someone who does not get paid to be. My competition who has said, you know, I got to tell you, I really thought that those were News interviews and that you were not doing your job the way you do.
Do it with everybody else. II don't want to disrespect you but I think you may have been partial to Andrew Cuomo in those interview. I've never had a regular person. Say that what they've said is I really appreciated the connection between brothers who were in different aspects of the same Dynamic and how you were there for each other. And that's what they took from it. And I'll tell you what, Kara, you know, I'm not a big fan of myself but I've won a lot of Awards in journalism just about all the ones that
They offer on a major level for television journalism. I've never been thanked for any work that I've done. The way I was, for those interviews, did I think they should be considered a conflict of interest? AB initio inherently all day long but there was complete transparency. You knew it was my brother. You can say and you knew it wasn't a new. Yeah,
I get that. How can you forget that? Because I do understand that CNN. Loved it. They like it. You could see that. They loved it because they gave us.
You didn't care. I don't think I get that, I get that but it's still. I don't want to like our journalistic Point here but your case again CNN alleges that you had reservations did you have reservations about doing this at all or you just felt it was fine.
My brother hadn't been on my show for a reason which was it's an obvious conflict of interest and I'm not going to cover his administration and I even said in the interviews a time will come. When I cannot have him on anymore because there will be
Questions of accountability that I cannot be believable on because obviously I'm biased. I said it to the audience and they always got it. I had had my brother on once earlier, 2013, not in a hey this is my brother 2013. He was at the scene of a train accident. Yep. And I had them on just to tell us what had happened in the train accident cause nobody was there yet and it was like, six something in the morning I was doing the morning show, new day and I got shit on for it. Yeah. And I was like, you know what, I get it. I tried
Dit. I understand why they're saying this, leave it alone. It's not a nuanced discussion and maybe it shouldn't be because it's a nice bright line distinction, and that's fine. So, of course, there were reservations to be had, but it was also a unique situation and, you know, just in terms of like, hey, you know, the nursing home stuff came up and
When the nursing home stuff came up in Earnest, I didn't have them on
anymore, right? But you did ask about them, let's get to that moment of accountability, you talked about June 2020, nursing homes. Let's, let's play that clip.
Nursing homes people died there, they didn't have to, it was mismanaged and The Operators have been given immunity. What do you have to say about that?
The several statements that are not correct, but that's okay. It's your
show. You were correct. Actually, he goes on to say it's tragic but not accountability. What would you ask him now? If you had to re ask that question, when he pushed back on you
look, the idea of, did I give my brother? A pass is an obvious rhetorical question. That was the real question.
They're journalists were asking him questions at the time that we're not as pointed as the one. I asked him. And I couldn't even fairly cover it, which should tell you something about the nature of media treatment of people in power, in general. Maybe, I don't think that the nursing home situation has been complete and fair in its appraisal, but that's on my brother. And that's for him to decide whether or not he wants to take it on or his past administration or the current one if it ever comes up again, that's not my problem per se but what would I ask?
Him. What difference does it make? Because whatever I would ask him, would be found lacking. I could have held up a piece of paper and put Mike Wallace is glasses on and said doesn't this show that you should be damned for this forever. And people would say, I want soft. So that was never what the relationship was supposed to be. It was never presented as that and people never understood it as
that, all right? All right, I find it to be. I found that to be a softball question. I don't use that lightly. So what would you have phrased? It, like, no matter what you do, you say?
Couldn't have been anything but considered a
softball. Well, look, I mean what I would turn. The question, two is find me. Somebody who asked him a question during that phase? That was more pointed than what I said. Because what I said was this summary of the accusations.
Well, sure. But that's like saying I did a c and everyone else did D,
but I wasn't even in the class.
I got it. I got my, but bring him on, to talk about it. You kind of have to be prepared and
especially didn't bring them on to talk about it. I brought him
Come on because I was asked to have him on and it was going on and I felt, you know, I was going to have to ask about it, but again that was a little bit of an impossible situation, which an ethicist could very easily say. Yeah, that's why you shouldn't have had them on. And my response to that criticism is that was never my plan to have him on and when I did have him on it was not about news and covering a governor of a state. That's all I'm saying and I don't think that it's a nice
Case to make against me that I don't know how to test people in power. So I know how to ask the questions. I'm no Kara Swisher but I know how to ask the questions but nobody was expecting me to ask them of my
brother. Yes, my point. I get that I get that from the get-go. It's a problematic thing and no matter how you slice it but yet there are more problems. So in late, 20, 21 and 23, 22, your brother faces allegations of sexual harassment, you noted correctly, you weren't covering and you weren't but you were advising him joining calls with staffers encouraging him to stay.
Giant not resign. Walk me into doing that now. I know you've talked about it a lot about, here's your brother, here's your family. I was with my brother last night, very close to my brother. I would not have helped him if he was in a situation. I just wouldn't do if I felt like it was a journalistic problem. I don't think I would have helped him but maybe I'm a terrible sister. What did your
brother say? When you said I wouldn't have helped you.
He said that's exactly what you do and then we had dinner, we're very close family, I just feel like if he got into trouble, I would either stay away from it. I might
Them personally, but I wouldn't help him strategically.
What's the difference between helping him personally? And
strategically, oh Chris, come on Yugi, I hope you're okay. I would not have given him any advice, especially media advice. I wouldn't have helped him anything practically it, why not? It's way too much of a conflict of it, a potential conflict of interest,
but you're not covering
it. Well, he was, he was imaginal figure and you had him on that. You had already made a more of a national figure,
but I wasn't covering his
allegations, you're covering the country.
And also you need to tell the listen, hovering the
country are coming. Come on. I told the audience Cara that I'm helping my brother. Yeah, yeah, I was advising him. I was helping him in ways that I thought were
reasonable. You didn't disclose ahead though. You did disclose in an apology which was at which you did?
Do I apologized? I'll tell you why. Kara, because I was told by my bosses that people at work felt that I had compromised, their
You to do their job. Yes, I did not know that I did not feel that but being told that I absolutely never intended that and if I had known going into it that me disclosing to my audience that I'm not going to cover my brother and he's my brother. So I want to help him to the extent that I can would have compromised CNN. I may have made different decisions but I had no reason to believe.
Believe that, and that's why I apologize because the idea of compromising, anybody else wasn't my attention and I'm very sorry if that were the case.
All right, let's play the on-air apology, which you made in May 2021 when news of helping your brother was breaking in the news, here's a clip.
This is a unique and difficult situation and that's okay, I know where the line is, I can respect it and still be there for my family, which I must I have to do that. I love my brother.
I love my family, I love my job and I love and respect my colleagues here at CNN and again, to them. I am truly, sorry.
So you say you knew where the line was and in that case, when you were making that apology, I'm not going to parse your apologies. What did you imagine? The line was that you crossed a line with your colleagues and hindered them or that you were should have probably not done that.
Look anything that hurt the people that I was working with.
Was not my intention. Now again, I never heard heard that and I never when I say felt it, you know, I'm pretty good at understanding what's happening in our business. And I've never picked up that CNN was taking heat for what I was doing until it happened. And I think part of the reason was, you know, kind of the media, Dynamic and crowd-sourced consequences and how they can
been into a frenzy, but
I just, you know, I understand the interest in understanding the dynamic, I just see it as so plain and obvious. I don't even know really what the value of the conversation is to be honest, what was the line? Well, if you say that, what I did hurt you, then I'm sorry, because I never intended that, I had no idea that it was going to hurt you. You being the, you know, the audience, my colleagues, not the audience. I don't know how it hurt the
And I've never heard that it hurt the audience from the audience. And again, you know, I have I wouldn't be here if I didn't have respect for what you do and who you are. I don't know what the value to the conversation is beyond pursuit of an inconsistency, or, you know, some type of intellectual banter because
It just seems like a very obvious situation to me. It was just unique because there's nobody else in my
position. Well actually I was I my wife was a big executive at Google my ex-wife actually I stopped covering Google. I'm put a disclosure about 10 pages into our thing and I made it dead clear to the audience, the what the problem was so we you know it's I get the
problem, she didn't quit your job but I think that in your own experience then there should probably be
Some understanding because you stand. That's why I wanted to stop being a
journalist. I also would never have talked to her about any problems. She had there any issues or giving her advice etc, etc. We
differ on that. I don't think that my ability to be a journalist is compromised by helping my family, in a situation where I am not covering at the same time nor using my position to
influence, change of you didn't cause anything except advice essentially is what you're saying. So the ages of
To gatien's made it worse. I guess in lots of ways because they started talking about it and obviously you talk to them when they release those new materials CNN immediately suspended. You in four days later they fired you. So things changed because of this AG information,
correct. Yeah, a couple questions because this is getting increasingly interesting to me by the way I use I'm usually tired of of even thinking about this because I got to move forward at some point but I don't mean that as a
mitigating momentum actually 11.
What do you think of the decision for them to call me in to be deposed?
I think it's what prosecutors do. I'm not surprised by it. Yeah.
Yeah. Someone who doesn't work in the office who has no official connection who was not described as material by the people they had interviewed in any way. You don't think that was at all, targeted towards causing a little bit of pain.
Probably, yeah, there you go, but that's what they do. I'm sorry. I don't think that's not a surprise to, no, no, no, no pressure. McCain is what they do in many
cases. They rarely call in a family.
Member of a politician who had a, you know, had a side capacity in that
well, you were in the mix Q's. Maybe you knew some, maybe they thought you knew something. Listen, I don't know. But if you're getting texts from Melissa, DeRosa who worked for your brother, you were playing on it, you could I can see them doing this without thinking. It's unusual. You were in the mix and maybe you knew
something, but they knew I was in the mix, that's all I'm saying. And again look,
I I put CNN was in a bad position. Yeah, I was in a bad position. My brother was in a bad position. This state was in a bad position everybody lost. And I have to be honest, I have always answered the questions and I don't believe it's about serving the audience. I believe it's about a standard that I really find fascinating that journalists want people to believe that they absolutely.
Lee never ever no one ever talks to politicians about the Situation's they're in and offers them advice really, really Kara. Come on. Well, so the fact that it was my brother. Yeah. And there's a while I was never involved. As a main guy, wasn't a man guy either. And if you were to ask people in his administration, they'd say that Not only was the aside piece, but he was a side piece where we often thought he didn't know what the hell he was talking.
- all right. Chris Cuomo,
sidepiece, I'm being a side aspect, not the way, you're taking it in your mind, Kara Swisher.
Okay, because that's where my mind goes. Its course, CNN has alleged that they didn't know the extent, which they used when suspended
if I know. And it's the subject of an arbitration. Yes, indeed. And I'll let that
decided at the same time. Letter was filed by attorney, Deborah cats about her client who made an anonymous sexual misconduct allegation against you, the client was a former Junior College of yours at a
Their Network. You have denied this, correct? Yes. Okay. And they also alleged that you did a, I guess I give me segment on TV to keep her silent. You also have denied this. Yes, and the reason you haven't said much at in the interview with Dan Abrams, you said, you didn't want to extend the drama of it. Because just by talking about it, it makes it
worse. Yes.
Now Jeff Zucker was a very close friend of yours, as I recall were you surprised, he stopped backing you or did he have?
No choice,
I don't know, you'll have to ask him.
Have you not talked to him? Nope, one of the things that people at CNN, which you were just talking about were angry. You about, is they felt. You were the one who pushed to disclose the Romantic relationship? He had with Allison gollust. Who is the powerful head of communications and marketing. Did you do that? No, I didn't so people. But you know, people think you did that
correct? Kara people think a lot of things and very often it's for bad reasons.
For self-serving reason or to hurt somebody else, did you tell you what? Go ahead, have you ever heard anybody offer any proof of any of the things that I did beyond the text messages? That the Attorney General had, who did not conclude? What many in the media did about my involvement.
Have you, did you think it was fair? What happened to him and Alison, go
last. I am not happy about it. I didn't, you know what I mean? He gave me. No joy. I think he's one of the best.
Makers of Television. I think he's got one of the best heads for news I've ever been around. He gave me tremendous opportunities, Alison was always on point and good to me.
Until this, and again, very regrettable. But I'm not the guy to play Petty, gotcha, shots, and go after people. I spare others judgment and I put it on
myself. So you skewed toward loyalty in that regard. Speaking of that, you do have a lot of friends at CNN. You have not talked to them correct on lemon or Jake Tapper or Zucker himself.
I mean look after Jeff fired me. I mean there wasn't a lot for us to talk about,
right? Yeah. Okay, so now you're suing CNN for 125 million dollars, the suit. Justifies it by saying, quote Cuomo had his journalistic Integrity unjustifiably smeared making it difficult if not impossible for Cuomo to find similar work in the future and damaging him and the amount exceeding 125 million dollars, where does that stand? And you have a new job now, which I'd like to talk about so you can be you can be hired, apparently.
Well, do you believe that where I am now is equivalent to where I
was depends on how you what you do with it.
I'm talking to you in my dining room, okay? I was the number one show at CNN and I would be recognized in Malawi as much as I would be in Milwaukee.
Then preparing t-shirts on YouTube, you are, but I find that to be
Fantastic. Yeah, by the way, you made it sound like, you know, I'm some huckster, you're not raising money. We work for what we play, the
entire clip, and it said that, didn't it? It did. You said you just character? I'm teasing you. It's called facing you. It's teasing you. Yeah. I sell I have lots of fun during swag. Right now I'm a pivot shirt. I'm wearing a code thing, please. So this, where is this? Lawsuit going to go this, whatever this negotiation or litigation arbitration arbitration was wherever the facts lead it and what you
You are still pressing for 125 million dollars.
Look, we'll see what the arbitration
does. Okay, let's take a quick break. And we come back. I want to talk about your new job in your dining room, break and me over the cold.
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So you're doing a new show on news Nation. Lodging October 3rd with the called the Chris Cuomo experience. Know, what? That's good. Listen, I know. Well, that's the Joe Rogan
expecting. Joe Rogan might find.
That's okay, what's he going to do? It's
called ready. Yeah, Cuomo
say that again, I'm kidding. Don't please do it deep voice. Okay, she's called Cuomo. Yeah it works. It works now. Explain what news nation is. Its for those who don't know, it's backed by TV station. Giant next are presided over by
Compton. And he's very famous for making Sean Hannity's, career early on in
radio all the things he's done and you pick making Sean Hannity. Think that's what he's famous
for. Its not a pig. Did he did? That's what I don't know. That that's pretty good
for, I think. I think that no way he's built next door and by the way, I think his boss Perry suck, would like some, some notice also. But I think how they built that company is very impressive, very impressive. I'm joining them because
So I like what they are about, I did not see growth in going, back to places I had been
before. Did you have offers?
Yeah. And as time has gone past, there has been more interest which is nice and expected because that's the way our media culture works. But
What did that mean for me? Would I want to work at Outlets that I now had different feelings about could I grow? How would it be perceived, you know? So I wanted to try to build something and I think times have changed and I think that Perry and Sean respect that at news nation and respect reach and respect the good fight, the idea of there.
An unbiased news station, everybody says they're unbiased. You're going to have to judge show by show and over time and see what they do. What I pitched them was, I am not going to engage in the game. I'm not going to have people on and fan the Flames of the current food fight. I'll have anybody, but we have to have a constructive conversation and I don't want to hear your explanation for why you are
Good is because I'm bad. I think we have to move past that because most people have moved past it.
So news Nation originally was called, for people who don't know project neutral which was interesting. They've had some up and down, rough thing, Bill shine hiring caused a lot of ruckus. He worked with the white house, obviously, and Fox News, but it's branding itself and you were branding yourself as nonpartisan. Purveyor of Truth,
I've always been nonpartisan
having watched you every night. I would
Not agree with you. I think you spent years bashing Trump. A lot much of which was deserved, but there's
definitely didn't ever go after Trump for that was
undeserved.
Well, you creates a situation at CNN where people feel that if CNN here and fox doing this, you know, that? Come on.
No, no. I know. That's, I know. That's the. I know that's the game. Yeah. In the narratives, which you were Brave. Here's my feeling. Okay. I think that that is a bullshit analysis. Not yours. I'm saying the idea that fox defended him and CNN attacked him on my show. Here's what I did, okay, I gave then Donald Trump and then President Trump.
A fair hearing, okay, and if he said things that were demonstrably false, which he did frequently, I called it out because of how it erodes trust, and it's a crisis. I didn't go after his kids and called names. And all I had kellyanne on, I had his people on, I gave him his best case, not like Hannity would, but I'm not his buddy. Okay. That's not my business. So I don't buy this. Well, you went
To Trump. Yeah, and that makes me a lefty. I think Chuck Schumer has done by doing a disservice. I think he made him. Look foolish early on by not being able to give him reasonable expectations of outcome. So now what am I right e in the game. Yes. And you'll see that now. Well people think that, who cares if people think that it's why do they think it if you look at Twitter right now people say well now he's a righty. I am
Really, why? Because I say things that are critical about the left that are now being understood in a new context, I want more parties, I want ranked Choice voting. I want term limits in Congress, and I want electors apportioned by the states, that matter. Is that right? Or left? Or is it reasonable? I want more parties. I don't care about the left in the right. I think that
killing us. It's, I agree with you, but I think is against a backdrop of team playing is, which is what you described.
There is this idea of
you say there's a backdrop you have to establish that I'm part of it more than because people who don't like my Effectiveness go on Twitter and try to mitigate my Effectiveness by saying I'm something bad. I
know, but I think you're ignoring what is happening? It's going, I don't think it's 50 people on Twitter. I think there is real Division and I think it's been Amplified and weaponized by the internet and social media and also by media itself, the I say something all the time.
I'm enragement equals engagement. Can you fight this very powerful? Thank you can use any time. Can you fight this? Very powerful Trend because you can't get people to watch and ugly and you know, interesting up this is exactly what CNN is doing right now. How do you look at what they're doing under Chris licked was that's what they're saying
to. I have to see how it develops, they got great horses there, they have great resources, they cover news, which is something we all need.
Get back to, you know, I mean the the embarrassment of how we've ignored, Ukraine is Jackson Mississippi. That's what I'm going to do on my show. What are they going to do? I don't know. We'll see. I wish them. Well I hope they're successful all over the
place. Do you have any thoughts about the changes there? Are you still in
touch? Yeah I got to see what they are but I don't like the idea that they're saying they're going to be more Middle Ground. Look, I know that their new ownership had some reservations or concerns.
And there's some controversy surrounding that I think a lot of people in the media, like to see CNN, go down, because it was so powerful. And they tried to make that happen because I believe that that's what our business is often about is tearing things down as a negativity as a proxy for insight, but I don't believe in Middle Ground. I believe that there's left and right and then there's reasonable. And usually, the three are very distinguishable from one another. Again, it's like boring to people. It's
tedious. Can you get people watching? I mean obviously. Yes.
Yes, nation is small, fifty thousand, eighty thousand versus a million. So what
first of all, two things, three things 1, so 0 audience, but you're very influential, why you should be you smart, you think about
think I'm bigger than news Nation, but go ahead,
but it's just starting, okay? I mean, okay, people know me in a way, they don't know you. Yeah. And so, and that, who cares? Where, you know, I'm a fan. All right now, I don't care what you do. Yeah. And what I'm
Saying is, it's okay. If you're not the biggest, you don't have to be the biggest.
You have to resonate with people that matter, and I'm not looking to feed the fire breathers or the fringes. There's enough of that. That doesn't mean that there's not a need for this. In fact, a desperation for this. And I think I see that in my own growth and yes, news nation is a startup. Yeah, that's okay. I
daren't. Entrepreneurially, Chris Cuomo, comma entrepreneur.
I did that because I'll tell you what, I don't know shit about.
An entrepreneur. But I'm learning and I've never really been attracted to money as an end. So figuring out cash flows and monetization and stuff like that or it's hard for me because I don't have a natural appetite for it. But it's an interesting exercise and this is the best answer. I have. I like that. It's a start-up because I'm not coming in to an audience that has been preconditioned. It's going to be organically grown there and I dig that and I think the audience is vast and I must you know, point out to people who say it doesn't exist.
This'd. They said that about Trump to, okay, that and everybody knew who has traveled this country. That there were tons of disaffected disenfranchised, feeling white people and that was the strength of Fox News where I worked. Okay? So I was not surprised by that. I knew it existed, I know who Steve King and Tom tancredo and those guys were playing too. And I knew it was real and the media was like nah nah nah. Nah yes. They were wrong because a lot of media is out of touch. I'm not
so
You think now those disaffected people are the reasonable people.
I think there are reasonable people. I think some of them are disaffected people. I think some of the people who voted for Trump did. So for bad reason, some people did it for good reason and some people did it for no reason. They felt, they had no choice. They could not vote for Hillary Clinton. She represents everything that's wrong with politics to them, and they were not going to reward lawmakers who they think, or perfidious in the main.
To tell them that Donald Trump was Unworthy of joining their ranks. And I say, instead of going after Trump all the time, which again, the media is doing with this civil suit keyword civil.
So you are not impressed by AG James work right now. No no no that's not fair.
I more accurate. I'm saying if the behavior is as egregious as she outlined and I have no reason to believe that it isn't. Okay.
Then why are they criminal charges? Why isn't the New York da? Bringing them? It's been referred to the sdn. Why in the IRS? Why are they bringing cases then? Now, I'm not saying that that's suspicious. I'm saying the bar is high. He's going to say you're victimizing him, and we have to examine it very carefully, especially where Trump is involved, because every time you swing and miss it, erodes
confidence. Okay, I want to end. I do want to end on
Emily and your brother just just one quick question. If CNN tried to hire you back for 10 million a year, would you go?
If we have some Bots were cherries and nuts, we'd all have a beautiful Christmas.
Get that. I really want to know. All right. You can have that one but you can keep it. I'm moving forward. Okay. Moving forward that you can. You put that one down and and it's a good idea to do. So what's your relation with your brother? Like now good?
I don't know. That's what's your relationship like with your
brother. She's my brother. Nothing. Got you fired. I might be. Okay. All right.
I just feel like there's such an odd disconnect between media and like regular people, you know, people love their family. This is not unique, it is not special, it is not conditional. Nobody gets along all the time in a family. That's a lie. If people say they do, they're lying.
And that's okay too if that's what they want to do. But of course I love my brother. Okay? Of course you love you bro.
Are you going to have him on your show?
Maybe now I mean I haven't planned on it. Yeah, maybe you know I mean like why would I have them on? I mean, I don't know, I don't lie, I don't know. I mean, he's not an office.
I mean, you know, that's, I don't know. I think if I had him on people, like, you would Feast on it for, like, three days in a
row, but I don't know. I don't have people like, no, I'm not a media critic and up Kim. I could care less. If you have one media, your show, you own it. What ya media. Okay. Our media critics.
That's what we do in this business, right? Okay. All right. Well,
not bad danger. So he also just to settles, he's filed an Ethics investigation into AG James. Are you advising most
I have nothing to do with it because I don't really have any help that I can offer and you know he does not need me answering for him. He's a big boy. Yeah you can answer his own
situations. Alright, last question, I know you have to go. We're going to ask guests on the show to give unsolicited advice to various people but I'm going to change it a bit for you. What advice do you think your father, famous for City on the hill? Ethics and fantastic speeches, Etc. Would give you right
now.
I told you that Kara. Swisher is a gotcha,
chasen.
I'll tell you what he would say because he said it many times.
He would say.
Of course it depends on the context, right? About let's say just to make it easy, what do you do? Professionally, help.
Help and balance, what you do professionally with your real responsibilities, which are to your family to your kids, to your friends, that's your real work. Your real work is taking care of your own, and hopefully, if you bless the way I am, that's a expansive Circle. But make sure you helping be a part of something bigger than yourself. My
Was obsessed with that. Now he was not
A huge.
Let's say this the right way, he did not love the idea of me going into the media, when I left the law and finance. He believes this is a very compromised industry, and he believed that I would always be a
Target. All right. Last very last question. Can you build back that trust or do you think you're just starting again? I
don't think I have a, you know, I am I going to build back my trust with the people who believe for bad and no.
Reason that I did things that I didn't do. I got to I got to respect The Source before I respect the criticism. I'm talking to you because I respect you I answer your questions, the best I can because they're fine I don't think they're the most helpful questions for your audience but that's okay. If you want to ask them, yes him. I don't think that the audience, you know, has the same interest in it that we do and I don't think that it's about people feeling a certain way that has to be changed.
Oh,
And what the industry thinks of me. I've never been a favourite. I'm probably the only number one show at a network that nobody ever wrote about being number one. Now part of that is because I don't do a lot of interviews because I believe that a lot of the outcomes are obvious and often net to neutral or negative and not worth the
effort by, you really are a politician's son.
I am no politician, son. I hate politics. I would never enter politics. I would never suggest someone go into politics. I do respect many of the people who make that decision because I know they're doing it for the right reasons, but it's not for me. Yeah, it is not for me. This is for me, I'm okay with this. I like this. I like being engaged. I like engaging.
But I'm definitely changed by the experience and that's okay. I think people make a big big mistake in their own mind when they take themselves too seriously and think they're too
special.
On that we will end me and my bad questions. People are interested. You're wrong.
Do you have another last
question? No, that was it unless you have another one. You said last question last seven weeks they last question. That's my thing. That's my thing. Okay. Are you really did? Go ahead it with Chris Cuomo, in that conversation with spice,
It was a spicy discussion at it, laughter it I have to say he was a good sport. I gotta say he answered all the questions, you know, not everybody likes Chris Coleman but I have to say one thing. I like that. He gave a he answered, he did answer all the questions and to, you know, he's still trying he's still going. I wish we had talked a little bit more about news Nation, you know. Even if you don't like them, the man is a good broadcaster, he really is. He's very compelling to look at. He's very energetic and so we'll see if it works. They certainly are trying something fresh and different and I always like that. Yeah, answer the questions had a good sense of
Over. And he did remind you that he's more famous than you are. Kara Swisher is indeed. He is I liked when he called you. Kara Swisher. Yeah, I know. Gotcha footsteps. My name? Gotcha Swisher. Gotcha, journalist. Give me a break. So carry you as Chris for some advice from his father to him. And we're going to be doing some unsolicited advice that's because you're so good at dispensing. It you give me unsolicited advice all the time about how to handle my boyfriend. Just like dating advice. Yeah, exactly. But it hasn't really panned out yet but you'll see. So who is your unsolicited?
Advice for this week, you know, it's not for Adam Levine, but it's about Adam Levine, you know, then finally, you know, I'm not a particular fan of Maroon 5 or their music or anything like that. But what he did is he wrote some sex, he's married to a supermodel. They have they're about to have their third kid. I think she's pregnant with her third kid and he was writing sexy text to people or flirty text flirty. I don't. Really, I don't think they were that sexy and they were just flirty to a series of people, Apparently one.
His is alleging, that they had an affair and so, you know, I don't really care, but, but anyways, so everybody on the Internet is making memes and they're doing all kinds of things around it. Because there's a hit, a couple different phrases that are very easy, to make fun of and do memes about and I get it, I get that, that's the case. But here's the deal, we talk about privacy a lot. You know, the Press does, you know the tech industry violating privacy? This is this guy's private text. Is this really ours to like, you know,
To schadenfreude over. I think it's very untoward. When people do that, when they do that, every single person has a text, their find unfortunate, I'm guessing would be the issue. And so if the old media me, Kara my tax, the perfect. That - oh my God, I definitely don't want people see my tattoo. I know exactly. And so, you know, whatever it's not our business. What his marriage is like, it's not our business and he wants to write flirty texts, with people, who seems like it was consensual. I did. I assume it's consensual because they were texting.
Back and I don't know, I feel very icky. I felt very icky with the basic step and I was really glad when Jeff Bezos said print him, I don't care. Your advice is to publish her. Stop printing it stop covering it. I just think, I don't know. I don't think we're ever going to stop. Putting that like it's gone on. Since the beginning of time, when celebrities, you know, all those celebrity magazine, it just seems more all participating in it. It's not our prettiest side, and it makes us feel like we're all in high school and where the jerky is people ever. And so, you know, I for a minute, I was like, oh, look what joke and I make and then I'm like, you know what, maybe not so much.
Not so much and you it's fine if it's politicians and like they say something stupid and you can respond to it. But this is a guy's personal life and he said, he's sorry. And I don't know, I just feels kind of icky, you know, I get really mad when people say you're doing that for clickbait. Most things media does is not for clickbait. It is, and I hate when people do that, but in this case, Yes, siree, that's exactly what it is. And so, you know, I don't think it's fun. I see why people do it, but I don't think it's fun anyway, and I think you look worse than Adam Levine does.
As and I'm not your mama, but if I was, I wouldn't like you to do it. And so, that's my advice, and you're welcome. And by the way, if you're in a pickle and you want Kara's advice, we're also going to be answering listener questions. You can call 1 888 Cara, please. That is 1888 Kar a plz or Z as they say it in the queen's English and ask your question after the beep Carrie. You've given me great advice over the years from your career tips to boyfriend, advice too fast.
And tips. Okay. No, no.
Today's show was produced by name. Arase, Blake, nice chick, Cristian Castro. Russell and Rafaela siewert Fernando Arruda and Chris shurtleff engineered this episode, our theme music is by track Adam X. If you're already Following the show, good for you if not what are you waiting for? Go wherever you get your podcast look for on with Kara swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the VOX media podcast, Network and me? I mean us, man, goose,
We'll be back on Thursday with more Cara. Don't kill me off yet.
Thank you to slack for supporting this launch and for supporting our work here, slack is really one digital space that can help your team make the leap from surviving to thriving, just because it's all in one. Don't think it's one-size-fits-all, slack is flexible. And customizable actually one of the best parts of communication on slack is watching your team. Make it work for them. Automation, zap Integrations channels dedicated to Niche interests. As I said, like, Top Gun. It can really be a great space to be where work.
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