#483 Matteo Franceschetti on Improving Your Sleep

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompano. Most of you know me as pomp. You're listening to the pump podcast. Simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off Mateo Francis Shetty is the co-founder of eat. The world's leading sleep enhancement company in this conversation. We discussed sleep Fitness how to improve your sleep the importance of getting the full eight hours and the product Suite of sleep enhancement devices that eight offers. I really enjoyed this conversation with Mateo and I think

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All right guys bang bang. I've got a special treat for you. I've got Mateo here. Thank you so much for doing this sir.

Thanks for having me. I'm happy and excited.

All right, let's go to your background before you started eight sleep you have like two or three other lives. You did not grow up in the United States and then you've built a number of other companies and I'll walk us through your

Yes, when I was a teenager, I was an athlete I was playing tennis tournaments that is how I was planning my life and then graduated in low join two large law firms. And then I became an entrepreneur started to companies both of them. They were in solar so in renewable energy climate change and then I got into health and performance again with it's

like, all right, and where were you doing the other companies in Italy?

One in Europe when in the US

and so when you start eight sleep the general idea is sleep Fitness. I want to start there. Just what is sleep Fitness.

Yeah, so we are really trying to reinvent the concept of sleep sleep is not something passive if you have to do any is a waste of your time. It is like going to the gym. It's something you need to do to be healthy to be feet. So go to bed. Take your time.

Recover like your body and your mind recover. So then in the morning, you will be fit and you will perform at your best. There is a tag line that we use for eight sleep. That is we fuel human potential Rebecca sleep

in so when you think through that I think most people say, okay, I have to sleep for 8 hours. I wish I didn't have to sleep for 8 hours. I'm not doing anything productive talk through kind of how you you know, and Alex and

and your third co-founder when you went to go start a sleep, like what was the general idea of what you could do to actually improve this for

Yeah, so there are two things we really want to do we want to compress the sleep and we want to save your life compress leaf and means what if you could sleep only six hours and get more rest than when you were sleeping eight hours and then I can tell you how we can do that. But so we want to give you two hours back after life every day second because it's still six hours, which is a lot of fine. How can we make the time productive? We will scan your body in order to identify.

Any signs of illness like even cancer so going to bed will be more valuable than going to your doctor every night. It will be like going to your dog.

So when you think let's start with kind of compressing time first, right? Everyone is told since they're a little kid getting eight hours get eight hours. And the thought process is you need eight hours of sleep because that is what allows you to actually recover. It kind of let the body do what it needs to do. How do you think you could compress that from 8 hours to 6 hours yet have people just as rested or more rested than they are today.

The reality is when they tell you all you need eight hours is sort of bullshit. And sorry for the world. The point is we don't use technology to enhance our sleep. Right and so we go to bed and we expect to wake up refreshed and more or less rule of time. You need eight hours. But the reality is this so you will get around 20% of em, we've got lucky you could range between 17 and 25 click 20 you will get

Of deep sleep again 17 to 25. But look let's call it twenty plus twenty sixty percent of your time of 50% of your time is like sleep like sleep is an inefficiency of your body. You don't really need it. What you need really need is RAM for your mind and deep sleep for your body to recover. So our goal is to compress the amount of like sleep and if we cut that in half, that is how we gain two

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about there's REM there's deep sleep and there's light sleep when you go to sleep. What happens to the

Yeah, so the first part of the night is around is about deep sleep deep sleep is usually what you need to really recover at the physical level your body. Then once your body has to recover the second part of the night, we'll have a prevalence of ram ram in studies for your mind. This is the moment where all the informations that you have received during the previous day at no reorganized and Save in your brain where n is also.

You dream. And so the body gives first most of the tension too deep because the physical body needs to recover and then only once that is done it gets more into into RAM, but the reality is you go to Cycles are 90-minute Cycles applied sleep deep and RAM, but the percentages change based on what I just told you

and so in those Cycles, you're literally going from light Too Deep to ram.

Is it good or bad to have more or less Cycles? Right? Like is it something where if I go through three Cycles then that's okay. But if I got five Cycles, it's better or it's just one cycle. Okay,

at the end of the day what you need is a certain amount of deep ever and usually the Cycles tend to be quite standard also around the 90 minutes unless you have some special dysfunction and so they killed the end of the day.

To get these 20% plastic sleep out of the Tower so you can translate their communities and the same for Ram. So for example in my case if I get anything below 18% deeper am I start struggling during the day? I'm not in my Peak Performance anything about 20% I'm like a lion and and I can't get anything done that they so that is what really matters and the amount of light sleep is still just in inefficiency of your body.

Okay, and so when you think through this kind of company Mission of we want to compress the amount of time that you sleep you mentioned compressing the amount of light sleep. So not really touching deep sleep or REM but cutting for maybe four hours to two hours right in terms of this light sleep. Is it possible to extend or kind of elongate the deep sleep in the REM as well? So you almost get some of it is compressed on the light sleep side, but

So elongating the time for deep

and room.

Yes, I know meaning the key for us is for you to achieve this let's call it 20% just faster. Once you have the 20% you feel great. You don't really need more than that. And so the key is how do we get you there faster? And so we will help you fall asleep faster. We will help you get deep sleep sooner rather than later and we will try to extend that percentage across this 90-minute

Got it, and you are literally like the most for the foremost expert I know on sleep. I as many people now know at the throughout 2020 spent a bunch of time try to figure out how to get better sleep. I am a full-on convert if this was a religion like I would be all in I would go to church every day and tell people like yes sleeping more absolutely has this positive impact on your body and your mind what are some of the tips and tricks that you think through

In terms of helping people get better sleep but not products that you provide. So is there things that they can do with their lifestyle before bed or maybe even during sleep that they can actually get better sleep or get more

Yeah, so I'll tell you about our products right what everyone can do so first if you took two engines look at dr. The first thing they would tell you is keep consistency. So try to go to bed at the same time more than anything wake up at the same time every day. Even on Saturday and Sunday because if you just sleep in your just jet lag in your body and then a Monday you will struggle again to wake up while instead what you want to do is you want to train your body to wake up every single day and that time

Does it matter what the time is? It just needs to be always the same and then if you can try to go to bed at the same time, but on that you can be more flexible. Then second thing is what I call thermal shocks. So one thing I do and I love is you could do a shower and you keep switching between hot and cold 10 times 30 seconds hot 30 seconds called these thermal shock will really help you relax at least.

This very personal but with me works really well another option that you have if you have access to that is a sound and ice bath but even just a shower works great orange lights. So I have Phillips you and my house you can set what are called routines and so starting at 7:30 my likes the dimming down and the first list which to Orange and then they keep dreaming down and by 9:30. There is no more like in my house.

And so orange lights helped to develop a melatonin and the fact that the lights keep beaming down will help you understand that not time for bed. By the time it's coming you can try some supplements. You can use meta Tony I use it from time to time some people use CBD or you could also try magnesium magnesium will not have a direct impact on your sleep, but it will help you relax your muscles and

Then personally I do some Mobility exercises before going to bed for the hips for the body. Just kind of know relax and open up your body before you spend eight hours on the bed.

Yeah, and so each one of those things I think can have a positive impact alone. But when you put them together obviously can be quite advantageous. The one thing I didn't hear you mention, but I know we've talked about before is just like actually tiring yourself out during the day to go to sleep.

Talk a little bit about if you do that like what the advantage for that is?

Yeah a couple of things. Yeah the best ways. Yeah you want to work out or you really want to make sure your tire but one thing I noticed on my body is if for example, I work out later in the afternoon or in the early evening, then you reactivate your body and then my sleep is not that good. So if you can try to work out in the first part of the day

for by lunchtime, but don't do it at 6 p.m. 7 p.m. Or 8:00 p.m. Because otherwise that will reactivate your heart rate. So it will take time for your heart rate to really stabilize and relax again, you will start producing more heat which will make more difficult for your body to fall asleep. The other two big things that have an impact on your sleep are caffeine and alcohol caffeine. The rule of thumb is stop drinking it eight hours before going to bed. Then our data shows that everyone is different.

So you might know software caffeine more than I do or vice versa tested and the last one is awful. I stopped drinking in April 2018. You know, I wish we spoke about that Alpha has an impact on deep sleep on RAM on your body temperature HRV and also your heart rate at

Explain more about the alcoholics. I don't think people really understand this right? There's a lot of people who say oh when I get drunk then I pass out, you know, I fall asleep. It's amazing. But what's kind of happening from a physiological standpoint when you put alcohol in your body before you try to sleep?

Yeah. So from a physiological standpoint you have this sense where oh, it's Gotta relax my mind my mind stops from racing and that I can fall asleep. But the reality is the quality of sleep that you will get is low quality and so in the morning when you

Copy or HRV, which is a heart rate variability and is a good metric to determine how rested you are would just be lower than expected because that had an impact on your heart rate as well. The other big thing is in particular as you get older you will see that alcohol has an impact on your body temperature. And so if I drink I will start feeling hot in the middle in the middle of the night and so that will be an additional thing that will be

My Sleep Quality so overall you don't feel it you just think that is relaxing you but at the end of the day the type of sleeping you get this poor

so you stop drinking in April 2000 19. I haven't drank all of January we're recording this towards the end of January and I feel amazing definitely has improved my sleep so I can kind of speak to that but you still drink coffee and so, how do you think about caffeine in general for you? Do you drink in the morning? And then you stop at a certain time. Do you?

limit yourself to how much you

Yeah, so I'm Italian and so I drink espresso and I drink three espressos that more or less. They are the equivalent of one cup of coffee American cop and I have one early in the morning around 9:00. Then I had one around 11:30 and the last one by two one thing I started doing because I wanted to reduce the caffeine intake was to switch to decaf and so I still have three Essence espresso, but they have decaf and so usually

Will the D cast your jets in taking 1/3 of caffeine compared to a regular coffee? And so at the end of the day something like if I was having only one espresso for the whole day,

it's super interesting and then you mentioned working out as something you do in the morning. Is there certain types of exercises that are better or worse for sleeping should I think about it in terms of running or other cardio type exercises first weight lifting or is it all kind of the same? It's just burning calories.

He's

so for Sleep itself. It's probably all the same at least we don't have data about that yet, but I can tell you is when you think in terms of longevity for your body. You should thinking in three dimensions. The first one is a high intensity interval training. So spike your heart rate as much as you can but it drops like it again. You will see incredible results immediately in your Biometrics, even if you

Skewers and Apple watch you will be impressed second you want to do weight training, but you want to really build the muscles. There is plenty of medical evidence that weight lifting is really good for your longevity and for your body long term and the third one is mobility. So you want to make sure as you get older that you maintain a good Mobility which will be extremely key when you start getting knowing to the 70s or 80s.

Makes makes sense. So we've talked a lot about what you can do kind of during the day or before bed you at eight sleep really solve the problem of what people can use at night, right and kind of what are the products that you could actually use to get better sleep maybe walk us through just what that product Suite looks like today.

Yeah. So the biggest Factor impacting your sleep quality, which we didn't mention yet.

His temperature 50% of the couple's they fight around temperature and the reason is pretty simple temperature is different from for each of us when you hear people saying, oh you should sleep at 68 degrees is brown. And the reason is your body temperature changes during the night and so the temperature of the environment and the temperature of the bed need to change accordingly. So I fixed temperature will never work will not work for you. It will not work for your wife with no work for myself.

And so that is what we develop we develop a technology that changes the temperature of your body during the night. These are your Biometrics and there is medical evidence that through temperature adjustment. We can improve your sleep performance. You can fall asleep faster we can get up to 20% more deep sleep you can get more RAM and our data shows that we are also reducing costs and turns and Recaps by 30 to 40 percent.

So 96% of our customers are reporting methods sleep with our crowd.

And so when you think about how the product works I have one is amazing. I sleep colder than plan a sleeves but how does the product itself actually work? There's a mattress. There's a pod cover but just walk us through kind of like what those products actually

Yeah, so there are two farming factors and you can buy the whole mattress and it calling the Lamborghini of the mattresses or obviously performance and then there is the mattress cover so you can retrofit any dumb the mattress. Let's say you don't want to change your mattress you like it. You just bought it. Just want to put our technology on top of it. Now you can do it. The college is the same across the two devices and it does two main things first Dynamic temperature control so we can change the temperature.

Turn off your body during the night and each side of the back. We can have a different temperature second. The technology comes with an embedded sensors. So we are able to track everything about your heart rate your respiration and your sleep.

And so when you've got the temperature regulation going on it's basically taking water and it's putting it through this kind of cover. Right and that's what is being killed or potentially even heated in some situations.

Yeah. So the temperature can range anywhere between 55 degrees and 100 degrees. It can be really cold or really hot ninety percent of our customers. We are kind of in the middle so they don't need that.

Extreme temperature some customers love to get into bed and find it extremely cold. Usually men like not to find the bed really cold while inside women like to find it warmer, but only depends it depends on your of the gender on your body fat on your age for example women in menopause. They have hot flashes and so they want the called bad. So we are able to adjust the base on all these different needs, but the other key thing is we

We will change the temperature during the night. And so usually as soon as you fall asleep, we'll try to cool you and in the second part of the night when you tend to have more drab we will try to provide thermal neutrality. The reason is this when you are in rem you're dreaming, right and so your brain deactivates a lot of body functions, including temperature control, if your brain feels that the environment is too hot of to call it will not let you get into.

Ram because you could die if you were like in a store, right? And so the key for the ram is thermal neutrality where your brain understands that the environment is safe and it can let you fall into RAM.

And so when this is happening how much of this is I have to be a genius and understand my body and set the temperature and also the different times through the night correctly versus you'll tell me kind of proactively. Hey many people like you are likely to want, you know, plus or minus degrees at certain times in the

Yeah, so there are two tiers right right. Now we are in in the first year and the first year is about suggesting you what you should set as a temperature, right? So this is the recommended temperature for people of your gender. And this age plus we see environment environmental changes. So let's say the the weather in Miami changes will provide a different recommendation, but the end goal that is going to come in a couple of months is temperature autopilot.

That is one of the most requested features and so we will be able to control the temperature for you so is set it and forget it. We will maximize the temperature for you. And then in the near future, there will be different modes or profiles where you will be able to say look I want to optimize this thing. Let's say a lower heart rate that is what we will be able to do it to do for you through machine learning and AI.

Yeah, it's in super smart, right?

Basically, you've got this product out with all the customers you're Gathering data because the sensors in the bed, you've got a very slick kind of mobile phone application and over time. You're just learning right if it's very similar, you know, I've talked before about like Tesla and the fact that they've got all these cars on the road and there's Gathering data and so they're so far ahead that everyone else with the data that that ends up being a pretty significant

Advantage. Yeah. We're collecting. I mean we have already collected seven.

Amiens hours of sleep, right and the database keeps growing obviously we are in compliance with know the rules anonymize and aggregated data. But yeah, we are we are learning we are becoming one of the largest split databases in the world and based on these data. We can become better and better at optimizing your sleep.

So for the people that use the existing products either the mattress or the mattress pod. What is the kind of

Response to people is it longer sleep is a deeper sleep. But what are some of the things that you see in the data that people get as a

benefit? So the most obvious already today are they are falling asleep faster and they are getting more quality of sleep in particular. We are reducing person turns and we are reducing we caps by up to 40% So it really meaningful number and so they really have this.

Is no higher sleep efficiency. I would say so they can wake up more rested in the morning.

I want to talk about the future products and some of the things that you think that you guys will be able to do over time. So today you've got things that make you sleep better, but you mentioned already there's a whole another kind of mission to the business and your vision which is being able to turn the time that you are asleep into more productive time talk a little bit about kind of what you're envisioning and hoping to build in that perspective.

Yeah, so first we want to reinvent to the fun factor of the bag to me is unacceptable that with millions of people are still sleeping on a piece of dumb phone that has been the same for 2,000 years, but that doesn't work. So the the way your bed looks will be different soon and we will start controlling a lot of different environmental factors. Not just temperature who will control everything to optimize you asleep and make sure that you can

Faster. So when you

real quick when you say you're going to change the kind of the shape of the bed or the or the bed as actual form factor, I don't know how much you want to talk about what exactly you're going to do, but just give people a sense. Like are you going to try to turn the bed from laying horizontal to vertical and people are going to stand up and sleep or what? How do you think about that?

Yeah, It's Tricky between what I can say what I cannot say what

I would say is this we want to control all the environmental factors that impact Your Sleep Quality. So we want to have your back while you're asleep and we want to make sure that we help you sleep faster than we track your health. And we also help your body to regenerate and sleep and live longer and this is connected to the second piece. That is the health peace. The beauty of what we do is we have a lot of space because the mattress is pretty big and I

Radio beeps. Hi. So adding sensors for 20 bucks or 40 bucks not going to move our margins. This means that we can keep adding sensors that are valuable for our users in order to be able to track more Biometrics and have a better understanding of the health a friend of mine. No, she just recently lost her dad because he had cancer and they discover this cancer a couple of months before we ended up.

Time that to me is unacceptable right now. We don't have any controlling what is going on in our body. And so I want to solve and fix the problem and there is a product that is your bad that you use every single day for 10 years. And so you're you're not sleeping there. So you're not moving a lot you have resting and so is the perfect environment to scan your body every single day for the next 10 years and we will see how your aging and we will see if there is any early sign of

concert or any other disease

and so when you think through that is this something that you'll be able to scan and you'll like she scream to a doctor. Is it something where you'll be able to tell maybe variations of the Biometrics and then just tell people hey something seems to be off. You should go see a doctor. Like how do you kind of look at people basically taking the information that you're able to Monitor and glean and actually turn it into something that might be

useful for them.

Yeah, I mean obviously there are a lot of rules and regulations that will be in compliance with that but oversimplified the lockers of what what you just said, right the key will be to see if there is anything of compared to to your baselines and if there is we will notify you and we will give you the advice to go and talk to your doctor. The end goal is not to replace the doctor. We actually want to enable the doctor to have much more data about what is going on in your health and be able

Back sooner rather than later to save your life.

Yeah. I'm a huge fan as are many people on the internet and it seems like you guys have been able to build somewhat of a cult following obviously if you help people sleep better, maybe it's just they're in a better mood and so they naturally have this affinity for your product. But also you have this kind of aspirational goal and Mission in terms of not only making people sleep better, but also,

So helping them to live healthier longer lives on top of that. What do you think is driving that kind of cult following online? And is there anything specific that you guys have done that was more intentional to kind of help build up that that following and that loyalty and

engagement. Yeah. I think we did a couple of things first. We have a very different perspective of sleep is not the sleep like being confit on a Sunday morning with waffles on your bed.

That doesn't exactly is not as and and that is not me like we got about performance we are about okay this time to recover it like going to the gym is going to be eight hours today. Hopefully Less in the future. But this is a moment where you need to take care of your body didn't perform at your best and I don't think there is any other company that thought of sleep like a sort of fitness and that is why we invented the name of equipment that is one and I think secondly is I really think we are at

two percent of our product vision and customer start understanding that we are a cutting-edge technology company. We're not a mattress company. We're not a mattress cover company. We are really trying our best to introduce technology to enhance our recovery and sleep and I don't think there is anyone else there. There are wearables and they are doing a great job, but I think wearables they stopped at the data. They just try to recommend

Something based on the data the difference in our case is we are going to do the job for you while you are asleep our machine learning models and they're working for you to optimize your team performance. So we got into this together and we will keep developing technology to improve your life and give you two hours of life back per day.

And so when you think about giving that two hours of life back is the idea that people will be awake and functional and kind of go do other things is it no, it's going to take an hour to get ready for sleep and kind of you know actually fall asleep and it's like an hour to wake up and you kind of like one of those alarm clocks it almost you know, slowly wakes you up with light and sound how do you kind of think about that to our savings and what people will do with

it? So the I think he had a goal is to really give

Chew hours back that you can spend with your loved ones or that you can spend doing whatever matters to you at the end of the day. I mean the whole point of how the company started is because I started wondering why do I need to sleep eight hours? Can I sleep for hours and work harder or do other things and that is when I started reading not clinical papers and I understood that the eight hours is not written anywhere that we need eight hours. We need that amount of

A pentagram and so to me is if we can make our bodies more efficient without compromising our health without compromising our longevity then I'm a hundred percent for that. But today if you was leaving six hours or five hours you were doubling your risk of heart attack. You were doubling your know the risk of high blood pressure. You will resting up dying earlier. So all that I'm not open to it.

Through technology. We are trying to find a compromise between these two

We didn't talk about food. Is there anything there? Whether it's before you go to sleep or when you wake up that has an impact on sleep?

Yeah, so definitely I mean my advice is try to eat a couple of hours going before going to bed all the the heavier you eat the worst. There are a bunch of studies that have also shown the carbs carbs will help you fall asleep faster, but the quality of sleep you get will be lower.

And so try to find the right compromise, their most recommended diet is the Mediterranean diet, which is kind of balance with also no olive oil and fish and avocado veggies all that kind of things. So definitely there is a direct correlation between sleep and nutrition the other interesting correlation is if you're sleep deprived you will start creating more junk food. There are some changes that happen in your hormones.

And so there is plenty of medical evidence of why that is happening. So it's not just you that you have this placebo effect that you're craving pizza is last night. You slept four hours. There is really something happening in your body. And so it's really important that you try to sleep at least 7 hours seven to nine hours per day to really make sure that you will also lose weight in because you will keep your diet healthier as a consequence of feeling

If we fast forward 10 15 years, what's the hope for where eight sleep is? Is it a mattress in every bedroom and you're scanning people's bodies or kind of what do you think? You know 10 15 years from now is the kind of the Holy Grail?

Yeah. I think the concept of sleep to Fitness will be the mass consumer, right? So people will think of sleep like going to the gym we will have sleep enhancement.

Isis you might call it bad's but there really is lip enhancement devices and preventative health will be huge right you will be able to know if there is anything wrong in your body 6 months 12 months even years before you will do today. And so you will be able to live a healthier and longer life just because of that.

So if everyone calls it a bed, which is be Ed and you called a sleep enhancement device, which is SED. Is that a an intentional just changing up one letter in

Just give me a just give me an idea

a little bit. Alright, when you think about the one person that you would love to have a sleep in their hands. Who's the one person in the world that you don't believe has the product yet, but you would love to put it in their hands.

Well, there's a pretty good question.

Matteo would never say I had a great question. Who's had a pretty good question though.

I don't know. I mean II think there are multiple people top athletes, but if I could pick one, I don't have a name but any Doctor Who is a surgeon because he can save lives. So if we can feel his or her potential Trebek asleep, we might be able to start saving lives sooner to them.

That's a great answer. I asked everyone the same three questions and then you get asked me one to finish but one of the questions we already talked about. So the first question is, what is the most important book that you ever read?

Obviously, I'm biased on that wire it was asleep. And I think the reason is these it will open your eyes. Is that the book I'm not affiliated with that so we don't work with Matthew Walker, but I think

You will open your eyes about the importance of sleep and how sleeper can impact your own gravity and your health. I think very few people including myself who are not aware where I'm not aware of that.

Yeah. It's a fantastic book. I highly recommend it and if people don't want to listen to the book, you can just listen to them talk and even a rogue and a couple other podcasts did a great job there as well. The second question. I usually ask people sleep routine maybe for you. What time do you go to sleep? And what time do you wake up?

Yeah, you know I go to sleep early. I do you often make fun of me. But yeah between 9:30 and 10:00. I'm usually in bed by 10. I'm asleep except when I when I have been there with you and Polina and you keep me up at night.

So you don't actually go to sleep that early 9:30 10:00 be like a good time to go to sleep. But I do laugh when we're trying to meet up for dinner and I feel guilty if I'm like. Hey, do you want to meet at a time I owe the man. He's got like cheddar. He's gonna try to run out.

9:15 to go home to go to sleep. I love it last question aliens. Are you a Believer or non-believer

hundred percent believer they exist and I will fuel their potential through backwards lie.

I have not had anyone offered to give aliens and asleep enhancement device. You might be the

first one. I will give them an S EP not SED device.

As long as they have money and they're willing to drive Revenue then there in the the total adjustable market, right?